Autonomous cars? I think not

[zebee]

going back in time I once nearly rear ended a Citroen 2CV on a multilane highway in the dark...it was chugging up a hill...the rear lights are small low down and spaced only just either side of the number plate ...I processed the vehicle as a lot further away than it was

it's a known problem with motorcycles on country roads: single light looks like a car a long way away.

two wheelers (especially powered ones which travel faster) don't give a lot of speed/distance info head on unless you are used to them and sometoimes not even then. Plus the narrow profile can disappear into the surroundings if you aren't paying attention. It's why if I see a car on a sidestreet I jink in the lane to a) tweak their hindbrain, the one with the sudden "oh !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! tiger" movement sensors and b) give them more of an idea as to size and therefore location.

[Thoglette]

Elon Musk's Tesla faces criminal investigation in the United States over self-driving car claims

Tesla is under criminal investigation in the United States over claims that the company's electric vehicles can drive themselves, three people familiar with the matter said.

[trailgumby]

Elon Musk's Tesla faces criminal investigation in the United States over self-driving car claims

Tesla is under criminal investigation in the United States over claims that the company's electric vehicles can drive themselves, three people familiar with the matter said.

Finally!

We have enough trouble with getting the autonomous truck fleet on our main mine site to operate as expected in strictly controlled environments, and we've been at it awhile.

I don't know how anyone with any knowledge of the field can realistically expect acceptable safety performance on uncontrolled public roads to become a thing within our lifetime.

It's about time someone took Musk to task for his exaggerations and falsehoods. The guy has a very tenuous grip on the truth a lot of the time. That's not that big a deal when the price of failure isn;t that great but when people's lives depend on it, it gets a whole lot more serious.

[MichaelB]

Elon Musk's Tesla faces criminal investigation in the United States over self-driving car claims

Tesla is under criminal investigation in the United States over claims that the company's electric vehicles can drive themselves, three people familiar with the matter said.

Finally!

We have enough trouble with getting the autonomous truck fleet on our main mine site to operate as expected in strictly controlled environments, and we've been at it awhile.

I don't know how anyone with any knowledge of the field can realistically expect acceptable safety performance on uncontrolled public roads to become a thing within our lifetime.

It's about time someone took Musk to task for his exaggerations and falsehoods. The guy has a very tenuous grip on the truth a lot of the time. That's not that big a deal when the price of failure isn;t that great but when people's lives depend on it, it gets a whole lot more serious.

+1 to that !!!

[mikesbytes]

Autonomous driving seems to be based on the occupant taking control when requested. Problem with that is that there's a delay before the occupant is ready to take over after being alerted

[Comedian]

So personally I don't find the Mercedes system very impressive. While taking responsibility for it is laudable.. they have used that to very very stringently control where it can be used. If you only allow it to be used up to 60kph, only on roads with big fences so no animals or people, and then only allow it to be used on certified roads .. very limited use-fullness. It seems like they are aiming for success by managing expectations.

Teslas system that can drive you out of your garage and across town while navigating normal roads seems several levels of difficulty harder.. one day...



https://thedriven.io/2023/01/16/the-ris ... a-traffic/

[Thoglette]

Tesla Engineer Reportedly Testifies That Self-Driving Video Was Staged
Reuters reports

The video states that the "car is driving itself," but Tesla's director of Autopilot software, Ashok Elluswamy, said in reality the car was driving on a predetermined route and couldn't actually do things like stop at a red light by itself.

Video from 2016

[Thoglette]

Engineers Australia has a talk on this topic coming up
12.00pm — 1.30pm AEDT, 10 March 2023
Webinar Only
Adoption of connected and autonomous vehicles (CAVs) in Australia

This webinar explores the reasons why the practical implementation of CAVs in Australia has been delayed. The panel of speakers will discuss issues that may have caused it and will also talk about potential opportunities that could facilitate a clearer way forward.

This session will shed light on the complexity of this issue by inviting three experts from industry, academia and government. They will share their knowledge and expertise about the current implementation of CAVs in Australia, barriers to implementation and the most realistic path to deploying CAVs into the Australian transport network.

[Thoglette]

Self-Driving Cars Won’t Save Us Anytime Soon

Long (and sometimes long winded) article on the state of the art. Summary? The SOTA is ten time worse than human drivers (yes, that's statistically not demonstrable)

Zoom out more, and the data tells a similar story. Uber’s ATG test fleet had driven more than two million autonomous miles before Herzberg’s death. Waymo claims that it has surpassed 20 million miles total. Altogether, autonomous vehicles in California drove more than four million miles in 2021. That’s tens of millions of miles driven over years of testing, with one death. That may sound impressive, but the most recent fatality statistic for human driving in the U.S. is 1.33 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled. Autonomy literally has a long drive before it can show that it can match, let alone exceed, human safety performance, even such as it is.

Worse, the various lane management type products fail to spot cyclists: and drivers are beginning to rely on these products (rather than, you know, actually looking). Same with the "pedestrian detection" type products.

In tests with a cyclist dummy crossing perpendicular to the vehicle path, the Tesla barely avoided crashes in two of five runs, and the Subaru failed to even detect the cyclist in all five runs, hitting the dummy every time.

Remember, these things are supposed to be "solving" human error. What's really happening is

The real-world outcome is hundreds of crashes, some fatal, which have been blamed on distracted drivers who were relying too heavily on driver assistance.

[Thoglette]

Meanwhile, in Washington, GM spruiks Autonomous cars for 'competion and jobs'.

From Reuters,By David Shepardson March 17, 20238:22 AM GMT+8Last Updated a day ago

GM CEO meets with senators on self-driving cars

"We must act to ensure U.S. manufacturers can compete with countries like China, create jobs here and improve roadway safety," said Peters, who represents Michigan, where GM is based. He added that Barra discussed with the lawmakers "the future of mobility -- including autonomous vehicles."

They wish to put 2,500 AVs on the road, having done less than a million hours of testing. And they're buggy enough to have the NHTSA investigate

[Thoglette]

From the “hardly surprising” files
San Francisco’s fire chief is fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks. And L.A. is next

All sorts of entirely predictable stupid behaviour.

I can’t wait for the fun we’ll have when robo-semis are unleashed on public roads by fawning regulators

[Comedian]

Looks like Tesla are taking steps to get FSD happening in Australia. Given they are getting a pretty big install base, I guess this should not surprise.

https://thedriven.io/2023/07/03/tesla-s ... f-driving/

[fat and old]

From the “hardly surprising” files
San Francisco’s fire chief is fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks. And L.A. is next

All sorts of entirely predictable stupid behaviour.

I can’t wait for the fun we’ll have when robo-semis are unleashed on public roads by fawning regulators

They're coming, and Transurban can't wait

https://cavs.transurban.com/trials/auto ... m_content=

[RetroPilot]

As some posters say, it just is counter-intuitive...

it's kind of like how we cannot quite process that the UBEr-ride to the airport is far more hazardous likely to be killed or injured than the flight will be, that we could fly 1000 times to Sydney or Brisbane and almost 100% certain be ok, whereas if we DROVE it 1000 times..odds are increasing to fairly disturbing of a very injurious mishap on one of those multitude of road-trips.

Meanwhile...the JOHNNY-CABS autobot car-taxi..sharing a road with me on the bike?

I'm not going to say I'm completely chilled on the idea, but..vs female drivers of a certain ethnicity being encountered ...it's a no-brainer. Bot wins...no, really..Bot wins hands down. an AI machine vs humans of proven rule rather than exception incomprehensible utter incompetence ? Only one way you could go..

[Thoglette]

…Bot wins hands down.

Except the data says otherwise. Despite all the stereotypes, human failings, psychos and speeding drunks the numbers for the bots remain worse.

(They’re all in this thread)

As some posters say, it just is counter-intuitive...

[Cyclophiliac]

As counterintuitive as it might sound, I'm wondering if the way to safer road use is to REMOVE most of the safety features installed in motor vehicles today, because it might force drivers to start paying attention to their own (and others') safety.

[RetroPilot]

As counterintuitive as it might sound, I'm wondering if the way to safer road use is to REMOVE most of the safety features installed in motor vehicles today, because it might force drivers to start paying attention to their own (and others') safety.

maybe..

I don't think much structured driver education as such is going on in Australia, ie, at high-school level..
Then we have people from other countries who effectively gain local driver's licenses where the process is effectively a 20-min formality..

They are more often than not obstinately incompetent pedestrians...they will not keep left on a sidewalk..let alone drivers.

What exactly is it that our state governments expect to come of this?
And then..there is the category of intentional road criminality..South East Skids, "drift" hoons, cars that make that gasping/rasping noise every gear-change ..why don't cops just defect every one of those roller-skates off the road for a start--and the epidemic of youth crime involving car-jacking or car-theft accompanying burglary/home invasion to obtain the keys...this type of thing more often than not involving the said car then travelling significant distances at double or triple the speed limit..with the potential for cataclysmic accidents during these flights and pursuits..

And each time, always ...lettuce-leaf penalties..easy bail...

[Andy01]

As counterintuitive as it might sound, I'm wondering if the way to safer road use is to REMOVE most of the safety features installed in motor vehicles today, because it might force drivers to start paying attention to their own (and others') safety.

Nope. I regularly still see people operating (I won't call them drivers because that would imply a level of competence) older vehicles that don't have the modern safety features and they don't pay any more attention, and are, of course, even more dangerous because they don't pay attention AND the car doesn't take care of anything either.

Perhaps if it changed back to the 80's where there was no safety features AND there was far less distractions (no phones, tablets, Sat-Navs, screens to play with), maybe then people might be forced to pay more attention, but even then I have my doubts.

[mikesbytes]

As counterintuitive as it might sound, I'm wondering if the way to safer road use is to REMOVE most of the safety features installed in motor vehicles today, because it might force drivers to start paying attention to their own (and others') safety.

Nope. I regularly still see people operating (I won't call them drivers because that would imply a level of competence) older vehicles that don't have the modern safety features and they don't pay any more attention, and are, of course, even more dangerous because they don't pay attention AND the car doesn't take care of anything either.

Perhaps if it changed back to the 80's where there was no safety features AND there was far less distractions (no phones, tablets, Sat-Navs, screens to play with), maybe then people might be forced to pay more attention, but even then I have my doubts.

The concept that my father talked about back in the day was having the driver basically at the front of the vehicle in a bubble. Anyway its an academic conversation as there will be no back tracking on occupant safety. We have seen a steady drop in occupant deaths while deaths to those outside of the motor vehicle has remained roughly the same. I'd like to see regulations that would result in less deaths to those outside of the vehicle and this could consist of changes to the shape of the vehicle at the front to increase the likelihood of the head strike being on the bonnet rather than the windscreen. They could also introduce popping the bonnet upon collision to soften the bonnet and decrease the chance of head strike on the windscreen. I've heard there's a Volvo that has a external airbag that covers the outside of the windscreen in the event of a collision, can anyone confirm?

[RetroPilot]

oh, yeah, one more thing phenomenon which has not come up.


How bout the SUVs/tradie utes with the wraparound MAD MAX ROAD WARRIOR bullbars.

When is the spotlight even going on THAT??

I would make it so that any accident these retards are involved in which causes death/injury ro ANYone, cyclists, peds, other drivers, where it can be reasonably suspected that the BULLBAR increased injury or made the difference between death/crippling injury or much lesser injury....the victim or their benificieries if deceased is awarded EVERYthing of any value that that prat owns.
IDK what goes on in these guys' skulls...and I would not expect to be able to reason with them about it b4 or after they have killed or grievously injured someone because of the presence of those monstrosities on nose of vehicle...but when someone else just paid for it, I would make those vehicle owners pay.
Every time I see one of the things coming, or hear a noisy Mick Taylor diesel exhaust behind me where when I see vehicle making the noise 50%+ it is something with one of those bars, I shudder...then see red.

Part of the whole package of deplorables, isn't it...dimwitted ownership of fighting dog-breeds, and imbeciles with 200kg+ of superfluous steel battering bars affixed to nose of vehicle.

[warthog1]

Self-Driving Cars Won’t Save Us Anytime Soon

Long (and sometimes long winded) article on the state of the art. Summary? The SOTA is ten time worse than human drivers (yes, that's statistically not demonstrable)

Zoom out more, and the data tells a similar story. Uber’s ATG test fleet had driven more than two million autonomous miles before Herzberg’s death. Waymo claims that it has surpassed 20 million miles total. Altogether, autonomous vehicles in California drove more than four million miles in 2021. That’s tens of millions of miles driven over years of testing, with one death. That may sound impressive, but the most recent fatality statistic for human driving in the U.S. is 1.33 per 100 million vehicle miles traveled. Autonomy literally has a long drive before it can show that it can match, let alone exceed, human safety performance, even such as it is.

Worse, the various lane management type products fail to spot cyclists: and drivers are beginning to rely on these products (rather than, you know, actually looking). Same with the "pedestrian detection" type products.

In tests with a cyclist dummy crossing perpendicular to the vehicle path, the Tesla barely avoided crashes in two of five runs, and the Subaru failed to even detect the cyclist in all five runs, hitting the dummy every time.

Remember, these things are supposed to be "solving" human error. What's really happening is

The real-world outcome is hundreds of crashes, some fatal, which have been blamed on distracted drivers who were relying too heavily on driver assistance.

I just read that post.
Driver distraction is definitely escalating, not reducing. We don't rate as worthy of avoidance by the "safety" programming on newer electric vehicles.

Yep gravel it is. The roads are best avoided by cyclists trying to avoid being struck by a vehicle it seems.

[warthog1]

oh, yeah, one more thing phenomenon which has not come up.


How bout the SUVs/tradie utes with the wraparound MAD MAX ROAD WARRIOR bullbars.

When is the spotlight even going on THAT??

I would make it so that any accident these retards are involved in which causes death/injury ro ANYone, cyclists, peds, other drivers, where it can be reasonably suspected that the BULLBAR increased injury or made the difference between death/crippling injury or much lesser injury....the victim or their benificieries if deceased is awarded EVERYthing of any value that that prat owns.
IDK what goes on in these guys' skulls...and I would not expect to be able to reason with them about it b4 or after they have killed or grievously injured someone because of the presence of those monstrosities on nose of vehicle...but when someone else just paid for it, I would make those vehicle owners pay.

Get out of the cities and kangaroos are hard to avoid.
Our ambulances are equipped with bars on the front of them. They are plastic, not steel but the shape is still going to cause injury when stuck.
I have a TJM bar on my Patrol. It has protected the vehicle from roo strike once, no damage at all. Plenty of lighting mounted to it to try to avoid them.
I hit one in my Swift, almost a write off and one in my son's Camry. $1k repair. Neither had a bar.
They have a purpose outside of the city unfortunately.

[zebee]

As counterintuitive as it might sound, I'm wondering if the way to safer road use is to REMOVE most of the safety features installed in motor vehicles today, because it might force drivers to start paying attention to their own (and others') safety.

Umm... the reason we have all those is because people were doing a lot of dying. So not having them didn't stop people doing stupid things.

Remember back when you were a learner driver and everything was hard. You had so much to think about and do and everything happened so fast. But now? Piece of cake. You could have no seatbelt and no airbags and I bet you'd drive just the same cos it is all those other idiots not you...

[Thoglette]

California governor vetoes bill banning robotrucks without safety drivers

By Abhirup Roy Reuters
September 23, 20239:00 PM GMT+8Updated 16 hours ago

While many states, including Texas and Arkansas, have allowed the testing and operation of self-driving trucks, California - home to Alphabet (GOOGL.O), Apple (AAPL.O) and some of the most cutting-edge tech startups - bars autonomous trucks weighing more than 10,001 pounds.

Not that there's anyway that could go wrong.

(Autonomous trucks work, when on dedicated railways. Most of the time)

[Thoglette]

The Guardian reports that Telsa is in court for selling self driving cars with "beta" software.

With the expected (fatal) outcome.

Tesla’s defence, completely without irony, is based on blaming the (supposedly redundant) driver.