New For ̶2̶0̶1̶7̶ 2020

[Duck!]

I ended up getting the HG700 version, mainly as it was about $30 cheaper than the HG800. Both share the same ratio pattern, and the only thing that the HG800 has over the cheaper sibling is that the 25-23-21 cassette cluster is mounted on an alloy spider, and hence also weighs about 34g less.

Plus the HG800/R8000 sprockets have better hardening and anti-corrosion treatments, which improve durability..

[MichaelB]

Plus the HG800/R8000 sprockets have better hardening and anti-corrosion treatments, which improve durability..

Noted !!

[Duck!]

It's the time of year again where Shimano start to show off what New Stuff they're about to release for the forthcoming model year. First off the ranks is the (almost) all-new GRX "Gravel" (grovel?) range. Not an individual groupset like Ultegra or XT for example, GRX is a whole new family in the mould of "road" or "MTB", combining elements of both and thus falling in between, but based on initial info, appearing to align closer to road than MTB gear.

GRX enters the fray with three groupset levels; 10-sp. RX400 and 11-sp. RX600 & RX810, pretty well aligning with Tiagra, 105 and Ultegra respectively. Beyond the obvious shifter/cassette 10/11-sp. matching, everything is interchangeable between the three groups. All levels are hydro brake only, but there's the option of Di2 shifting on the RX810 range.

Cassettes, chains, brake rotors and calipers are all carried over from existing road & MTB parts bins, although the flat-mount calipers (the only ones offered as GRX parts) get new graphics. For those wanting post-mount calipers, the non-series RS785 and all the MTB models remain options.

The new bits! Rear derailleurs gain more big sprocket clearance over the road counterparts thanks to geometry closer to that of the MTB models. Officially at least, maximum sprocket capacity is 42T, but given the standard R8000 & R7000 long-version road models can happily fit 40t (officially only rated to 34T), it's possible but not yet confirmed that these could take the 46T MTB cassettes, but probably not with 2x rings. Also unconfirmed, but probable is that the derailleurs will pair to existing road 11-sp. & 4700 Tiagra shifters. As with the teaser model Ultegra RX (RX800) from last year, all of these derailleurs have a clutch mechanism.

Cranks are offered in 1x and 2x formats, with the 2x offering 46-30 or 48-31 ring sets, while 1x offers 40 or 42T rings. RX810 gets the Hollowtech II construction, while the RX600 is solid (and is shared with the RX400 group;, there is no RX400 crank) The chainline is a bit further outboard than the road models, to allow for bigger tyres. Similarly, the front derailleur is tweaked to allow it to sit that bit further out, and has a slightly revised cage profile for the wider chainring range, but is otherwise similar to the R9100/R8000/R7000 design.

The shifters in all likelihood share the same internals as the road models - RX400=4700 (or the new version?) Tiagra, RX600=R7000 105, RX810=R8000, however the brake lever geometry is tweaked markedly. The lever pivot is some 18mm higher than the road models, greatly improving leverage from the hoods, while the lever blade itself is reshaped to improve ergonomics in the upper position. By necessity the hood peak is more pronounced than road models, but nothing like the butt-ugly RS405/505 levers. There's a gutted-out left lever option with no shifter guts for 1x, and also a "LA" variant of the 810 for use with a dropper post (again sans shifter guts).

The funkiest feature, and I'm not exactly sure yet how it will integrate, is the option of bar-top in-line brake levers in the same vein as the "interruptors" fitted to mechanical brakes on CX bikes for some years, but hydro! That needs a bit more investigation!

That's the current news; although Shimano's predictable trickle-down schedule says we should also be seeing new XT fot the dirt and Tiagra on the road, nothing has been released about either of those yet. I'll add more when I see it.

[MichaelB]

...The new bits! Rear derailleurs gain more big sprocket clearance over the road counterparts thanks to geometry closer to that of the MTB models. Officially at least, maximum sprocket capacity is 42T, but given the standard R8000 & R7000 long-version road models can happily fit 40t (officially only rated to 34T), it's possible but not yet confirmed that these could take the 46T MTB cassettes, but probably not with 2x rings. Also unconfirmed, but probable is that the derailleurs will pair to existing road 11-sp. & 4700 Tiagra shifters. As with the teaser model Ultegra RX (RX800) from last year, all of these derailleurs have a clutch mechanism.

….

snipped and bolded the bit I want top comment on - thanks for the extra comments as well though.

In a sperate post, alluded to a new setup on my Cannondale Slate that is well outside of the Shimano spec, but still works.

I've paired a SRAM XG-1199 10-42 cassette, RX800 RD with 36/46 chainrings (std 5800 FD) and it all works great. Needs a fair bit of b-screw, but it all works great.

Will see when the RX600/810 levers are available to replace the munted RS505's that I currently have, so really happy.

Re shifter compatibility with Road RD/FD, from the Shimano line up chart, it appears that it is - GREAT !! None of this SRAM proprietary crap !!

[2wheels_mond]

The shifters in all likelihood share the same internals as the road models - RX400=4700 (or the new version?) Tiagra, RX600=R7000 105, RX810=R8000, however the brake lever geometry is tweaked markedly. The lever pivot is some 18mm higher than the road models, greatly improving leverage from the hoods, while the lever blade itself is reshaped to improve ergonomics in the upper position.

The braking geometry has only changed on the RX815 Di2 levers. The others are the same as the existing road levers.

That's the current news; although Shimano's predictable trickle-down schedule says we should also be seeing new XT fot the dirt and Tiagra on the road, nothing has been released about either of those yet. I'll add more when I see it.

It seems there might be a little shake up this year. Along with GRX, Tiagra 4720 levers were announced with the same shape as 105 and above along with corresponding calipers (you can say goodbye to the RS405/505 forever, woohoo!), as well as a 48-34 Tiagra crankset. No signs of an entirely new groupset, though I imagine it's unlikely this year given that slight refresh. Perhaps next year?

While news has been quiet on the dirt side, the Shimano website page for the 12 speed quick link lists it as being compatible with the M8100 and M7100 groupsets, so it seems 12 speed XT and SLX are likely to be announced in the near future.

[Duck!]

According to the Cycling Tips article the mechanical RX bits are due around July or August, while the Di2 bits will be a couple of months later.

Thanks for the update the RX800 (and by extension long R8000/R7000) capacity. From my recent experiments I knew there was a bit in reserve beyond 40T, but not sure exactly how much more it could take.

[Duck!]

The shifters in all likelihood share the same internals as the road models - RX400=4700 (or the new version?) Tiagra, RX600=R7000 105, RX810=R8000, however the brake lever geometry is tweaked markedly. The lever pivot is some 18mm higher than the road models, greatly improving leverage from the hoods, while the lever blade itself is reshaped to improve ergonomics in the upper position.

The braking geometry has only changed on the RX815 Di2 levers. The others are the same as the existing road levers.

That's not what I read; the comment was made that the revised geometry is consistent with all GRX levers.

That's the current news; although Shimano's predictable trickle-down schedule says we should also be seeing new XT for the dirt and Tiagra on the road, nothing has been released about either of those yet. I'll add more when I see it.

It seems there might be a little shake up this year. Along with GRX, Tiagra 4720 levers were announced with the same shape as 105 and above along with corresponding calipers (you can say goodbye to the RS405/505 forever, woohoo!), as well as a 48-34 Tiagra crankset. No signs of an entirely new groupset, though I imagine it's unlikely this year given that slight refresh. Perhaps next year?

While news has been quiet on the dirt side, the Shimano website page for the 12 speed quick link lists it as being compatible with the M8100 and M7100 groupsets, so it seems 12 speed XT and SLX are likely to be announced in the near future.

Unusual but not entirely unheard of for them to release two groups together. When M980 XTR 10-sp. was released, they added upgrade kits to XT & SLX at the same time.

I'm wondering if the change to their normal schedule is continuing fallout from the factory fire last year.... Although most of the lower-level stuff is manufactured in other plants throughout Asia, the main Japanese plant that burnt is their R&D HQ, so that may affect development of some groups.

[2wheels_mond]

The shifters in all likelihood share the same internals as the road models - RX400=4700 (or the new version?) Tiagra, RX600=R7000 105, RX810=R8000, however the brake lever geometry is tweaked markedly. The lever pivot is some 18mm higher than the road models, greatly improving leverage from the hoods, while the lever blade itself is reshaped to improve ergonomics in the upper position.

The braking geometry has only changed on the RX815 Di2 levers. The others are the same as the existing road levers.

That's not what I read; the comment was made that the revised geometry is consistent with all GRX levers.

From the Bikerumor article:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/05/07/shiman ... d-options/

"The top-level ST-RX815 Di2 levers raise the brake lever axis by 18mm, putting the pivot point at a spot that makes it easier to pull the lever while riding in the hoods and maintaining a secure grip in adverse conditions."

...

"The other lever options keep the same (current) mechanical/hydraulic hood body and pivot placement, so you’ve gotta go Di2 if you want the improved braking ergonomics. But, all of the GRX levers get new hood covers with large ridges on the brake hoods for improved grip."

[Duck!]

Cycling Tips says otherwise... One of them is wrong. Time will tell I guess.

[MichaelB]

Cycling Tips says otherwise... One of them is wrong. Time will tell I guess.

I think that CT may have it wrong.

On Shimano's own page, it mentions the higher pivot on the Di2 lever, but not on the Mech 11sp lever.

Maybe couldn't achieve the pivot change due to the mech gubbins getting in the way.

[Duck!]

Just to continue the confusion, Bike Radar also implies that the higher lever axis applies across the board, however pics from various angles suggest the hood/bracket assemblies are shared with the road mechanical models, although the lever blades are quite different. One day soon we'll get to the bottom of it!

In other movements, in addition to the groupset-integrated 4720 Tiagra hydro levers previously mentioned, it appears that the "small hand" variant, introduced last year with 105 with the R7025 code filters up to Ultegra (ST-R8025) and also into the Tiagra set (ST-4725).

These levers have a shorter, more raked back blade so the fuly-extended position is roughly similar to the standard levers with the reach adjust wound right in, and can then be wound back even further. To accommodate the lever stroke, the blades flare out considerably more to allow them to pull back alongside the bar.

[Duck!]

Cycling Tips says otherwise... One of them is wrong. Time will tell I guess.

I think that CT may have it wrong.

On Shimano's own page, it mentions the higher pivot on the Di2 lever, but not on the Mech 11sp lever.

Maybe couldn't achieve the pivot change due to the mech gubbins getting in the way.

OK, over the weekend I posed the question to Shimano Australia themselves via their Farcebook page, and received a response this morning. The stated 18mm lift in brake lever pivot applies specifically to the GRX Di2 levers compared to the equivalent R9170/R8070, which are geometrically identical to the mechanical brake models. However the mechanical shift/hydro brake road models (R9120/R8020/R7020/4720/RS685) already have a higher pivot axis than the mech brake & Di2/hydro models, so there was no real need to lift it further for GRX.

[MichaelB]

.....
However the mechanical shift/hydro brake road models (R9120/R8020/R7020/4720/RS685) already have a higher pivot axis than the mech brake & Di2/hydro models, so there was no real need to lift it further for GRX.

Cheers for that clarification.

Wonder what the difference in pivot height is for the current Mech/Hydro levers is ?

[Duck!]

Had a visit from my friendly Shimano rep on Friday. Basic guts is what we've already found out, however Shimano Aus won't be importing the 10-sp. RX400 series of GRX stuff. However given the close family relationship between 4700 Tiagra and the 11-sp. groups, it will be entirely possible to pair a so-called 11-sp. RX600, RX800 or RX810 derailleur to existing RS405 or new 4720 10-sp. hydro levers.

As far as MTB, the first official line is, "what new stuff? Rumour and speculation!". However the second official line is that there will be a media launch on May 31st, presumably for M8100 XT and apparently M7100 SLX.

[borat]

According to the Cycling Tips article the mechanical RX bits are due around July or August, while the Di2 bits will be a couple of months later.

Thanks for the update the RX800 (and by extension long R8000/R7000) capacity. From my recent experiments I knew there was a bit in reserve beyond 40T, but not sure exactly how much more it could take.

pretty annoyed with the delay in di2 release, as i can't wait that long. now i have to buy something like 8070 shifters with MTB chainset/derailleurs to get something of a reasonable equivalent (11-42 and 26/36). would rather not have to mix and match labels (superficial i know), and i would really like that higher pivot point because it's probably handy.

[MichaelB]

I really wonder with the geoblocking now ramping up whether they’ll actually improve their supply capability, and whether prices will remain sensible ...

[Duck!]

Shimano took the wraps off the new M8100 XT and M7100 SLX groups overnight. In traditionally predictable trickle-down form, both groups heavily derive from M9100 XTR in design, with the differences mainly being in materials & manufacturing processes for more budget-friendly results. All three groups are completely interchangeable, although as noted last year with M9100, drivetrains are completely incompatible with earlier groups, however brakes are much more mixable.

Drivetrains:
As with M9100, both M8100 and M7100 offer two cassettes, 10-51 and a narrower 10-45, all of which use the "Micro Spline" pattern introduced last year. In keeping with past form only XTR has some sprockets made from titanium; XT has the two largest in aluminium, the rest steel, while SLX only has the one aluminium sprocket, and less intense machining of the sprocket carriers.

1x and 2x cranks are offered, the 1x with a range of rings from 28T to 36T, while the 2x is 26-36. There are several chainline options to suit ever-widening frame rear ends. Spindles remain 24mm, so bottom brackets carry over from existing series.

Chains, as per historical form, share the same base design and link shaping, differing only in surface treatments to improve durability and reduce friction at the higher specs.

Shifters are available in regular bar-mount or "I-Spec EV" integrated mounting, only compatible with M9100, M8100 and M7100 brake levers. Older I-Spec generations are incompatible with the newer brake levers.

Rear derailleurs are slightly different for 1x and 2x options; both are SGS-designated long cages, but the 2x has a slightly different body geometry to suit the 45T rather than 51T large sprocket, as well as the extra front gear jump.

The front derailleur selection is drastically reduced from the M8000 offerings, now only offering three versions instead of about 14!

Front hubs don't appear too drastically changed from existing series, however the rears get a fair work-over for the first time in quite a few years (M8000/M8010 hubs are exactly the same units as M785/M788 with new graphics, and only a mild tweak from M775, dating back to 2007!) Aside from the Micro-Spline pattern necessary for the 10T top sprocket, the freewheel system is a whole new design, similar in concept to the "Scylence" mecahnism announced with M9100 but since indefinitely suspended for further development, but it doesn't disengage the drive plates so beheves similarly to the DT Swiss Star Ratchet system. Therefore hubs are not backward compatible with 8/9/10/11-sp. That said, a few more hub manufacturers are now licensed to produce the Micro Sline pattern, so depending on their hub designs it may be possible to simply swap a freewheel body in order to upgrade to 12-sp.

Brakes:
Both two- and four-piston calipers are on offer. The two-pots differ externally from the old models, with repositioned hose connection and bleed points, but are otherwise similar. Pads carry over from the current generation, in contrast to M9100 which shares the slightly smaller pads with the road models.

The four-pots use either the D-series non-finned pads common to all Shimano 4-pots, or the new N-series finned pads introduced with and hitherto specific to M9120. H-series pads fitted to other 4-pot models (M820 Saint, M8020 XT, M640 Zee and non-series MT520) don't fit.

The brake levers follow the XTR design with the clamp centrally-located and the butt of the reservoir casting resting against the bar for additional support. In keeping with past generations, the slimmed-down "Race" lever option remains XTR-only. Rotors carry over from existing series. Keeping with past form, SLX deletes the contact stroke adjustment found on XT and XTR, but retains the tool-free reach adjust (which is deleted from XTR Race, needing an allen key to adjust).

That's pretty much the nuts & bolts of it. No formal announcement regarding Di2, but according to the Cycling Tips article I read this morning, the Shimano spokesman they interviewed admitted that it is in the works. When we see that is still anyone's guess.

[MichaelB]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd add it here as it's a 2019 part that carries over.

R7020 levers added to Cannondale Slate to replace the munted RS505 levers. Brakes have been bled twice using the proper gear and same methods that I've used many times without issue.

End result is that the lever travels a fair way, such that the inner shift paddles almost hit the bar, but lever is firm when it starts braking. So re-bled it the other day, and end result is same . No noticeable air detected.

Looked at the Shimano docs re the reach/stroke adjust - manual says that R7020 levers only have reach adjust. A bit more googling seems to summarise that it's some weenie bubbles stuck somewhere (prob in caliper or lever) that are the cause. Bigger bubbles cause spongy lever, hence the weenie bubble hypothesis.

When I changes the levers (new takeoff) they were joined at the quick-connects, so the caliper shouldn't have any air (lever feel was fine before), so thinking it's in the lever.

Bleeding has been done in stand (bike level position).

Any tips/tricks to help remove those potentially last pesky !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! bubbles ?

Been doing the tapping, lever flicking bizzo, but seemingly to no avail.

[Duck!]

Rotate the bar up about 30 degrees to dislodge any bubbles so they float to the reservoir bleed port.

Another trick for the models which don't have stroke adjust is to close off the reservoir port, gently apply oil pressure from the caliper to force a bit extra oil in, and close the nipple while pressure is applied. This will close the pad gap a bit & reduce the stroke. Be careful not to overdo it, or it may cause leaks.

[MichaelB]

Ta, will try the 1st one

[MichaelB]

So, adjusted the reach, did the 'flick the brake lever & tilt', and then also did the remove the wheel and close the pad gap and jam the wheel in.

The latter had the most impact, but all good now.

[Duck!]

Pretty quiet on the New Stuff front this year, because Shimano are deep in the trickle-down phase of their model cycle, so there's nothing super new & funky. Main news is the mid-range Deore MTB groupset completely jumps 11-sp. and goes straight to 12, taking its cues from XTR, XT and SLX. Limited options, only 30 & 32T chainrings, and a single 10-51T all-steel (read heavy as eff) cassette. Brakes gain a four-pot option, sharing pads with its bigger brothers.

The next step down Alivio also gets a makeover, however the new M3100 is barely perceptibly different from M4000, and remains 9-sp.

Unless they're holding more cards up their sleeve, there is nothing new at all on the Road side.

[Duck!]

Here's a twist.... Although all the Deore noise was about going 12-sp, under the radar they also released M5100 11-sp. and M4100 10-sp, both falling under the Deore name. M5100 retains full compatibility with previous MTB 11-sp. groups and adds an 11-51 cassette option to the family. M4100 is an evolution of the previous M6000 group. Curiously, the long M5120 derailleur is listed as 10 & 11-sp. compatible, which suggests the M4100 shifter won't match previous 10-sp.

[Duck!]

We're at the time of year again where Shimano start announcing New Stuff. First off the rank this time around is the new E-bike targetted "Linkglide" (LG) range of drivetrain bits, offered in 10-sp. Deore and 11-sp. XT versions, coded as M5130 and M8130 derivatives of their parent groups, with a few LG-coded specific bits chucked into to pot....
Basically the LG range is designed around durability to withstand the higher drivetrain loads imposed by electric assist systems; cassette tooth profiles are different (bigger basically), sprocket spacing as far as I can read so far differs from existing 10- and (possibly - see later) 11-sp. systems, dictating unique shifters and matching derailleurs. These are not compatible with existing model ranges, however the LG range is cross compatible between its 10- & 11-sp. variants.

Although Shimano do mention "unique gear pitch" aka sprocket spacing, they also state existing 11-sp. chains are compatible, so it's probably not that different to existing 11-sp. Cassettes are offered in 11-43 10-sp. and 11-50 11-sp. ranges, both fitting on standard HG-type freehubs. Which leads to the LG hub..... Initial impression is it's basically a M665/M675 SLX quick-release, Centrelock hub with the spoke holes drilled bigger to takd 2.3mm gauge spokes.

That"s all I have for now, I'll add more as I find out.

[10speedsemiracer]

/
And here's Shimano's promo video