Plant Based Diet Thread

[Nobody]

This video comments on two subjects. That people often benefit with the intake of omega-3 fats for inflammation suppression and to balance the omega-6 intake. Also that people need to be more precise or specific about the type of plant foods and processing involved if they are trying to heal or persue optmal health. As said at 05:38, "Just to say whole food plant based and you're done, is not enough". I have personally seen large changes in blood markers just by changing the type of food and importantly the way I process that food. But I'll go into that more specifically after I have shown more success, possibly in February.



Many experts will say that omega-3s need to be increased to reduce inflammation and to balance the omega-6 intake. From what I've seen from my own recent blood tests, I'd argue it would be better to get an omega-6 to 3 balance by reducing or eliminating the omega-6 fat sources - vegetable oils, nuts, grains and most beans - and then only adding the minimum of the high omega-3 foods - linseed/flax, or chia - to balance for that lower omega-6 intake. Otherwise - especially for those of us that are more susceptible, like me - the higher intake of total fat can raise cholesterol and blood sugar to unacceptable levels. The evidence suggests that most of us don't do well on higher fat diets, yet the average AU diet is 32% fat by energy intake. I'm currently trialing < 3% total fat intake by energy. Are McDougall and Esselstyn correct in implying that all fat can inhibit optimum health? Looks like I should find out in my case.

Related to the above, I was recently watching a video on high BP in which the presenter was promoting Esselstyn's work. I've read his book long ago so was surprised to find the following slide about his diet. Then I remembered that Esselstyn had different stipulations depending on whether you had heart disease or not. The one below must be for the heart disease patients. Anyway the surprise was seeing seeds and avocados on the forbidden list. Which makes sense when you see my cholesterol and A1C results just from the added oats and seeds. It appears all whole food overt fat sources have a deliterious effect for about half the population with a genetic predisposition and likely most of the entire population as they get into their senior years.



That in turn continues to make the studies which show cholesterol, BP and various other benefits of eating these forbidden foods questionable. I can only surmise that these studies are comparing people on poor diets in which even these foods show a benefit.

[Nobody]

I wasn't convinced that the title statement of the video was proven. The only benefit of the video is showing why the whole topic on essential fats is so confusing to us when the experts don't agree. I've always found it disconcerting that I haven't been able to find the ideal dose of essential fats for optimum health and longevity. Now I'm closer the understanding why. It appears to come down to no one really knows the answer. You've got supposed brain health - which can't be convincingly proven - against arterial health markers, which can vary from person to person on the same diet. On top of that, that sample of experts were all over the place and mainly questioning one another much of the time. To me it just points to a lack of research to date. IMO the topic of ideal doses of essential fatty acids for optimum health and longevity are important and so should have been thoroughly researched by now.

Since getting the poor LDL and A1C results I've ditched the oats and seeds. I probably won't be getting another cholesterol check anytime soon, but I don't feel notably worse for it. I may even have a bit more energy. My skin doesn't feel dry yet. My experience is just too subjective and subtle to know if changing course on this is doing me harm or not. McDougall and Esselstyn would say I'm doing no harm, while other experts would say I am doing harm. All I do know is that I feel more lethargic when I consume a lot of the whole essential fats and that my LDL and A1C go up.

[warthog1]

I am still on the oats, flaxseed meal and dates, with soy milk every morning. My cholesterol is good. No Hx of heart disease in either of my parent's families though.

I am fairly slack with respect to my diet compared to you though Nobody. I lack the level of interest and discipline I guess

I still pop in here from time to time to have a read though

[Nobody]

I am still on the oats, flaxseed meal and dates, with soy milk every morning. My cholesterol is good. No Hx of heart disease in either of my parent's families though.

I am fairly slack with respect to my diet compared to you though Nobody. I lack the level of interest and discipline I guess

I still pop in here from time to time to have a read though

Thanks for popping in.

Such a divisive subject that it's probably good that there is little interest here. Less arguments. I've changed so much over different points of time that I disagree even with what I have done in the past. We live and learn though. We are all similar in major ways, but different in minor ways, as you would know more than most. So that's why I believe that trial_and_error with testing are so important. Sure, we need take direction for the major changes initially. But in the end it will be blood tests, scans and trial_and_error that will more define what the diligent end up eating over the long term. I plan to report back here if I get an eating pattern that works for me. It might help others to shortcut the process a bit in regard to healing and possible tumour growth inhibition.

Even an individual can vary markedly over time as to what they can tolerate eating as their microbiome adapts. That variance change does often take months though, as it has done with me. I can now tolerate a 100% raw veg diet with less of the digestive problems I had. But there has been a fair amount of trial and error testing with a lot of failures along the way. I persist because giving up could end up being fatal within the next 5 years. So far I'm not relying on the medical industry to try to save me. I need to have a diligent attempt at saving myself day by day first with lifestyle. Believing strongly that it can make a significant difference. Time will tell. Next blood tests are due in Feb.

[warthog1]

That is a very significant motivator, yes!

Love your work anyway and thanks for making the effort to document it all.

[Nobody]

Thanks for replying WH1.

___________________________________________________________________________

The video below is a good example of why we are confused when it comes to fats and health. It's likely the most confusing video from McDougall I've seen.



02:00 - He starts with all the fat you need is in veg. He is correct at least in the short term. But no one is really sure if that applies to everyone over a lifetime. It depends if your body is a good converter of ALA and LA to EPA, DHA and AA. I often get less than the minimum WHO RDI for LA and not much above the minimum for ALA these days, so I'm obviously not that worried about it. But I've already done an omega-3 index test with an adequate result and I plan my diet with essential fat balance in mind.

02:24 - He moves to fish oil and fish as examples of omega-3 fats and their negatives.

03:06 - He specifies flax and says omega-3 fats suppress the immune system. That may be the case, but I haven't seen any studies showing that whole fat sources like flaxseed/linseed are harmful to real world immune response. From this study:

Omega-3 fatty acids ameliorate symptoms in several animal disease models, such as sepsis or autoimmune hepatitis, and have been tested in clinical trials with positive outcome.

Many positive videos on linseed/flaxseed in the link below.
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/flax-seeds/

03:25 - He says veg fats promote cancer. There may be a mechanism as fat is said to labor blood flow and cause cell hypoxia when blood flow is inadequate. This hypoxia is said to cause cell death or the instigation of cancer. I'm aware of studies showing increase in cancer rates with veg oil. But not with whole plant foods. Walnuts are associated with lower cancer rates in observational studies.
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/walnuts/
When making such claims it would helpful for him to be specific on what food type/form he is talking about. His comments seem reductionist. I suspect he was talking about veg oils.

05:10 - He now talks about fats in their proper amounts in their proper environments. The problem is that some of the grains he mentioned like rice and oats have omega-6 to omega-3 ratios of 30:1 or more. You don't have to search far to find observational studies showing the benefit of having an omega balance of less than 3. So unless you balance the high omega-6 intake of these grains with ground linseed/flaxseed, ground chia seeds - or to bypass the whole process, take an omega-3 supplement - how is that short chain conversion balance going to happen?

I'm revisiting this in light of my recent poor blood test results after consuming more seeds. I have seen nothing since to suggest that omega-6:3 balance is not important. The experts saying that lowering inflammation is the main beneficial effect with a good omega balance. But I'm currently trialing abstaining from all higher fat foods. At least until my next blood tests in Feb to see what changes I see.

Many studies are done on people that generally have poor diets. So results may appear better than the same study done on those with very healthy diets. If the flax/linseed isn't acting to compensate for poor dietary factors, then is it healthier than not consuming them on a very healthy diet? So far, other than creating an omega balance to reduce inflammation, it appears in my case to be no. So after Feb, I suspect I'll be consuming the minimum of higher omega-6 fat foods and only taking in enough high omega-3 seeds to balance my low omega-6 intake. Time and testing will tell.



I have watched a number of Peter Roger's videos on diet subjects, but I rarely post any of them. He is very well read, but I can't say I agree with a lot of his conclusions. Having said that, I'm warming up to what is presented in this video, which relates to what McDougall was saying in his video.

[Nobody]

Chef AJ just released a 32 minute YouTube video on a lecture from John McDougall on Lymphoma and diet. I understand that people who don't have this or something related are unlikely to watch such a long video. So I thought I would just post some highlight screen shots of it.

The sceen shot below confirms what I've been hearing/reading elsewhere in that vegetables - in my case raw - work, but fruit doesn't. I hear about some who have been eating raw vegan and still died from cancer and I wonder what their fruit to veg ratio might have been. Since most raw vegans are big fruit eaters. It gives me some hope that I'm on the right track with a veg only diet. But I won't know for sure until about June with my next scans.



As McDougall described it. The results below were after a 21 day water fast, followed by the McDougall diet without sugar or salt.

[Nobody]

I went to visit my father in hospital yesterday. He's 83 years old and has been there for some months for various reasons. The most recent issues being Covid (which he caught in hospital) and neurological auto-immune symptoms (like Parkinson's) brought on by antibiotic use. He isn't eating much and losing a lot of weight - which is dangerous at his age. So in an effort to encourage him to eat something healthy to recover, I looked at the menu. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos, but it's similar to the one shown below for main meals. As can be seen on the general menu, there are only 3 veg options. Of them only 2 are potentially mainly free of animal products and only one of those might be low in fat. I can see on the menu shown below that it says there is a vegetarian menu. But the one below is 3 years old and I didn't notice the same notice on the Gosford hospital menu yesterday. He is not plant based and the rest of my family are meat eaters, so I didn't push the issue too much. What I'm trying to highlight here is that we go to hospital to get well, yet the food supplied isn't healing. I'm not expecting hospital patients to eat only raw vegetables like me. But discouraging animal products and high fat foods to reduce inflammation in patients would be a good start.

[Nobody]

One of my favourite subjects. Vegans and the contentious issue of DHA. It looks like there is nothing to worry about for people who get enough ALA.

[Nobody]

[Nobody]

She gives a compelling argument.



Also Dr K is back on the DHA/EPA supplements.

[Nobody]

Looks like it's smoothies over juices. Which to me is no surprise.

[Nobody]

I believe the results seen in the video below are due to the quality of the standard diets the oats diet was compared to. Greger himself has said "compared to what?" when it comes to the relative health of foods. My blood tests have shown that oats are not as beneficial as some other foods I ate/eat. Consequently I'm trying other foods currently.

[warthog1]

Still chowing down on oats, linseed meal, a few dates and soy, for breakfast everyday.
Seems to fuel me well on the bike.
Will do a 100k on a bit of water and electrolyte and maybe a banana or muesli bar.
I am no dietary expert, but it seems to work well as a fuel source.

[Nobody]

Still chowing down on oats, linseed meal, a few dates and soy, for breakfast everyday.
Seems to fuel me well on the bike.
Will do a 100k on a bit of water and electrolyte and maybe a banana or muesli bar.
I am no dietary expert, but it seems to work well as a fuel source.

I think one of the pro cyclists in the past was big on oats. I've got the impression over the years that if you've got the pro genetics and training, then diet doesn't seem to make a huge difference to them. Although if I was a pro, I would still be particular about what I ate. With such small margins and gains in that profession, one can't afford losses anywhere.

Soy is supposed to be one of the best foods for cancer tumor anti-angiogenesis. I suppose I should make another attempt to consume it. Previous attempts gave me digestive issues (more than usual). They are heavy in protein and fat, with a similar profile to meat. I've read Asians do better with them as they were often fed them as children and their gut/microbiome is more adapted to them.

I'm back on the linseed at 10g/day to balance the chickpea omega-6 fat I'm consuming. I grind my own linseed these days in small quantities to make sure it's fresh and refrigerate it, as omega-3 fats are quite unstable.

[baabaa]

Soy is supposed to be one of the best foods for cancer tumor anti-angiogenesis. I suppose I should make another attempt to consume it. Previous attempts gave me digestive issues (more than usual).

Maybe try a week or 10 days on soy milk from whole soybeans and then the next week or 10 days of a brand made with soy protein.

I cannot do whole soy (and even worse are fresh edamame beans)...the type of sugars play havoc in my digestion. Anyway, could be a quick and easy test if you would like to use more soy products.

FWIW am a bit keen on making tofu from other other beans and even seeds like pumpkin!

[Nobody]

Maybe try a week or 10 days on soy milk from whole soybeans and then the next week or 10 days of a brand made with soy protein

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you mean "bread made with soy protein"? Whole soy milk was going to be my next try. The scientist William Li in his book suggested that 200ml/day of standard soy milk should be enough to get an effect.

[baabaa]

No not really - just found that I could do one type of soy milk and not full bean - guess it could work as a tool to discover via bread but I dont really eat any breads or baked goods nowdays.
Process of elimination with a simple one brand of foodstuffs vs another worked for me in tracking the issue
say....
Pure Harvest Organic Soy Unsweetened
Ingredients - Filtered Water Organic Whole Soy Beans (Min 15%) BAD!!
vs
Woolworths Soy Milk
Ingredients - Water, Soy Protein (4.0%) Okay!! ( but would like an unsweetened option but I just water it down a little) - Aldi do a light soy protein and a normal soy milk but at this point of time tap water is pretty cheap and readily available in Aust)

Tummy issues are not fun and I consider more common and will become a bigger issue than what most people would like to admit to

[warthog1]

Yeah I am just drinking Aldi regular Soy milk.
Apparently it is from protein isolate.
I just drink Soy based on taste and price.
None of it upsets my GI system.
Been on it about 25 years.
Sanitarium SoGood is soooo bad. Tastes disgusting imo.

Cows milk does cause issues.
A 600ml iced coffee = spray painting shortly afterwards.

Apart from that, it is the baby food of a quadraped that grows to ~ 800 kg.
I do not see why adult humans see it as a good food choice.

[baabaa]

https://youtube.com/shorts/mAH0OJ1zqDM?feature=share

[warthog1]

^^

[Nobody]

No not really - just found that I could do one type of soy milk and not full bean - guess it could work as a tool to discover via bread but I dont really eat any breads or baked goods nowdays.
Process of elimination with a simple one brand of foodstuffs vs another worked for me in tracking the issue
say....
Pure Harvest Organic Soy Unsweetened
Ingredients - Filtered Water Organic Whole Soy Beans (Min 15%) BAD!!
vs
Woolworths Soy Milk
Ingredients - Water, Soy Protein (4.0%) Okay!! ( but would like an unsweetened option but I just water it down a little) - Aldi do a light soy protein and a normal soy milk but at this point of time tap water is pretty cheap and readily available in Aust)

Tummy issues are not fun and I consider more common and will become a bigger issue than what most people would like to admit to

Thanks for the clarification and recommendations to try.

Yes tummy issues are one of the main problems that have kept me from staying fully raw. I may be too old to tolerate it. But I seem to be improving of late. Which means I might have some latitude to try other foods if I'm stable for a while before. When I look back at my eating habits, I find I don't stay the same for long. I think I'm at the point with my tumor growths that I can feel my liver after I've eaten. I may be able to use that - with the relative fatigue after eating - to gauge if some foods are better than others. But I need to only make one change at a time and give it some days, or even weeks to see if there is any consistency to the results.

I've heard that tummy issues are becoming more common due to the pesticides in standard produce. I also believe that the issues are more common if eaten raw as cooking seems to diminish the chemicals. I still use standard produce. I peel what can be peeled and the rest gets a 1:4 white vinegar to water soak for about half an hour or more. I do this because the availability and cost of organic makes organic problematic for me. I sometimes think that even normal produce is getting expensive. You can pay up to 3 times that for some organic produce. IMO truly for rich people only. I did try organic carrots, but to be honest I couldn't tell the difference .

[Nobody]

[Nobody]

This one is interesting as he shows studies on why people need to be on a plant only diet if they have kidney problems.

[Nobody]

I think most will find this one useful. Better to know than worry about it.