Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[fat and old]

On the topic of MHL's being responsible for the demise of the various Cycle share schemes here in Victoria. It has been claimed and some evidence put forward (in the form of international comparisons generally) that the initial RACV scheme in particular failed due to the MHL.

I've asked before, and hope for a rational discussion. Why has it not affected the scoot schemes? They are going forward in leaps and bounds. I've seen everything from bogans to delivery riders to suits and skirts on them. Wearing a helmet (or not, as the case may be) isn't stopping them.

What can the pro-helmetless cohort learn here?

Fat and old, this is the kind of endless nitpicking that stops us talking about a way forward.

It beggars belief, given you have stated, for years, you are anti-MHL, that you keep creating these arguments about side issues rather than adding something positive to the debate.

You need to open your eyes and maybe your mind to the possibility that you aren’t the only one who thinks they know the way forward Bob. I’ve come here with open arms, collegiate intentions and a damn good example of the thing most anti MHL advocates cite as a loss…the utility get about rider to the local shops….seeing a resurgence.

Yes. A resumption of the short trip rider who just nicks down the shops for some bread. Or uses the scoot for the last section of the commute. So they don’t use a bicycle? So what? That’s no reason to not learn from the experience.

Isn’t the whole point of doing away with MHLs to increase cycling participation? It has nothing to do with getting even with other sections of society for not having to wear helmets.

MHLS need to be removed in order to increase cycling participation. The scooter experience gives us some hints at how to get society on board with this. Seriously, I don’t want to argue with you on this and I won’t. If you don’t see that fair enough I’ll leave it here.

And while I’m at it. Electric cycles. More likely to entrench society’s acceptance of MHLs or question them? With thought and consideration of the escoot experience I suggest there is an opportunity to question them. It all comes down to the environment in which they’re used.

Think outside the box Bob. Why are scoots so popular? Why do so many use them not only in spite of having to wear a helmet but in many cases not wearing one and not being considered a fool? My son sent me pics of he and his mates zipping around Parliament House in Canberra on them, no helmets on and no issues from anyone. You really think this is nit picking at a side issue? It’s a way forward!!!!

[DavidS]

The thing is that many ride around on a scooter without a helmet and they seem to get away with it. Do that on a bicycle and you get stopped by the cops.

I reckon it would be great if the scooter riders get to ride around without helmets, not sure it will lead to any sanity on helmet laws for cyclists but one can hope.

DS

[BobtheBuilder]

On the topic of MHL's being responsible for the demise of the various Cycle share schemes here in Victoria. It has been claimed and some evidence put forward (in the form of international comparisons generally) that the initial RACV scheme in particular failed due to the MHL.

I've asked before, and hope for a rational discussion. Why has it not affected the scoot schemes? They are going forward in leaps and bounds. I've seen everything from bogans to delivery riders to suits and skirts on them. Wearing a helmet (or not, as the case may be) isn't stopping them.

What can the pro-helmetless cohort learn here?

Fat and old, this is the kind of endless nitpicking that stops us talking about a way forward.

It beggars belief, given you have stated, for years, you are anti-MHL, that you keep creating these arguments about side issues rather than adding something positive to the debate.

You need to open your eyes and maybe your mind to the possibility that you aren’t the only one who thinks they know the way forward Bob. I’ve come here with open arms, collegiate intentions and a damn good example of the thing most anti MHL advocates cite as a loss…the utility get about rider to the local shops….seeing a resurgence.

Yes. A resumption of the short trip rider who just nicks down the shops for some bread. Or uses the scoot for the last section of the commute. So they don’t use a bicycle? So what? That’s no reason to not learn from the experience.

Isn’t the whole point of doing away with MHLs to increase cycling participation? It has nothing to do with getting even with other sections of society for not having to wear helmets.

MHLS need to be removed in order to increase cycling participation. The scooter experience gives us some hints at how to get society on board with this. Seriously, I don’t want to argue with you on this and I won’t. If you don’t see that fair enough I’ll leave it here.

And while I’m at it. Electric cycles. More likely to entrench society’s acceptance of MHLs or question them? With thought and consideration of the escoot experience I suggest there is an opportunity to question them. It all comes down to the environment in which they’re used.

Think outside the box Bob. Why are scoots so popular? Why do so many use them not only in spite of having to wear a helmet but in many cases not wearing one and not being considered a fool? My son sent me pics of he and his mates zipping around Parliament House in Canberra on them, no helmets on and no issues from anyone. You really think this is nit picking at a side issue? It’s a way forward!!!!

I interpreted your earlier comment as another dig at holes in the anti-MHL argument and a snarky challenge to anti-MHL advocates to address that critique.

Obviously, I got that wrong and apologise.

Your fuller explanation makes sense and I completely agree with it. My limited observation of scooter schemes when travelling away from my small town, is that helmets are very much optional (which is strange as scooters are far more dangerous than bikes). I would suggest that if the same were true of bikes, the Melbourne bike scheme would have followed the general trend worldwide, rather than being a unique failure.

Even though I've got some reservations about motorised transport, such as scooters and e-bikes, vs bikes, it is great that they're proliferating and providing a template for reducing reliance on the car. My recent observation after a fair bit of riding over a half week in Sydney and Melbourne CBDs is that drivers were far more considerate of bikes compared to 10 or 20 years ago. My unscientific feeling was that this was due in large part to the incredible numbers of food delivery e-bike riders on the streets. Drivers might not like them, but they see them all the time, so they are just generally more aware of bikes. Raw numbers in themselves make cycling safer, because seeing cyclists (and scooter riders) becomes normalised.

[baabaa]

The thing is that many ride around on a scooter without a helmet and they seem to get away with it. Do that on a bicycle and you get stopped by the cops.

Stop making things up!
Do you ride on a bicycle without a helmet?
If so, have you ever "been stopped by the cops" and then so, been questioned on why not?
If yes again ever been fined for not using one.
No? Thought not.

Again your endless factoids such as these highlights the narrow minded absurdity of this never ending "discussion" and why it goes nowhere.

Can you not comprehend what others highlight have highlighted here?
The policing of helmets is rare.
People in Aust are riding around on bikes without helmets today.
They did so last week, last month and have done so for years
If MHL is really such a problem to you and if you do want any change, stick to simple clear facts and then use them to argue to the people that count around the real needs for this change.

Suggest you read the recent Monash Uni report on how few people in Vic really care about MHL and then the 2022 Bike Portland counts and on page 10 about the high helmet usage in a country without MHL
https://www.portland.gov/transportation ... t/download


More importantly you should watch this...
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfro ... ised-world

[BobtheBuilder]

The thing is that many ride around on a scooter without a helmet and they seem to get away with it. Do that on a bicycle and you get stopped by the cops.

Stop making things up!
Do you ride on a bicycle without a helmet?
If so, have you ever "been stopped by the cops" and then so, been questioned on why not?
If yes again ever been fined for not using one.
No? Thought not.

Again your endless factoids such as these highlights the narrow minded absurdity of this never ending "discussion" and why it goes nowhere.

Can you not comprehend what others highlight have highlighted here?
The policing of helmets is rare.
People in Aust are riding around on bikes without helmets today.
They did so last week, last month and have done so for years
If MHL is really such a problem to you and if you do want any change, stick to simple clear facts and then use them to argue to the people that count around the real needs for this change.

Suggest you read the recent Monash Uni report on how few people in Vic really care about MHL and then the 2022 Bike Portland counts and on page 10 about the high helmet usage in a country without MHL
https://www.portland.gov/transportation ... t/download


More importantly you should watch this...
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfro ... ised-world

I'm going to stop responding to things that have been discussed previously at length.

If you're not interested in the subject of MHL, suggest you contribute positively to a forum that does interest you.

[warthog1]

I'm going to stop responding to things that have been discussed previously at length.

If you're not interested in the subject of MHL, suggest you contribute positively to a forum that does interest you.

A more positive contribution would be for you to cease posting falsehoods.

[Thoglette]

Um it was the Monash report and not at number 7 of "Barriers to riding to ride a bike for transport" and Having to wear a helmet but was at 7% and the14th (of 19 reason) see page 6 of summary-

Of interviews with 40 people. And we've no view on the interview content & method. So shaky ground. (Still, it is good to see this sort of work being done).

It does pick items #1 & #2 - I don't want to share this sort of road with those sort of idiots.

In contrast, Bicycle network's survey in 2013 had nearly 20,000 respondents. The Heart foundation survey for the same target group had 1,500 respondents (and IIRC, statistically indicated that "bloody helmets" resulted in the loss of a million trips a year).

The RAC WA survey had 5,657 responses. Typically, the RAC didn't ask That Question(tm). Not surprisingly "other" came third (after the usual #1 and #2) as the number one reason. They did report (in their magazine in 2016) that having to wear a helmet was a main barrier to 31% of those surveyed.

Likewise, regardless of where in the world, whenever someone looks (including in .au) the introduction of MHLs results in a marked reduction in teenagers riding to school but often attributed to mysterious "other factors" (e.g. per my recent post).

Again, if your riding always involves special clothes & shoes and a shower afterwards, then, yeah, a helmet is no barrier to you.

But for utility transport MHLs are a significant barrier.

[fat and old]

But for utility transport MHLs are a significant barrier.

Does the term (and activity) Utility Transport automatically preclude any and all PPE or activity specific clothing? Genuine question, I’ve never seen it explained explicitly.

[baabaa]

So shaky ground

The dates are the key. Things have changed from 2013 and even 2016.
Covid has changed things again with the growth of WFH and then the use of masks. People on the whole are more aware of the importance of overall health and wellbeing and how PPE can help to keep themselves and other safe.
Also define - utility transport - Monash was based around transport. The top points are very important and like other nations the push for 30kmph in urban areas indicates a big rise can be had from that sort of legislation.
Seriously consider moving on and put your efforts into things that can and really will make a difference.

(Hey, I know you are one of the smart ones here so have a good open eyed look at the Portland data (and the https://bikeportland.org/ site) and you will see that helmet use continues to grow - we have been pondering this - https://bikeportland.org/2023/03/15/cit ... ing-371407 - in our local better biking group and our discussions with Eurobodalla Shire Council)

[BobtheBuilder]

The Portland data and the Monash report have been comprehensively discussed.

Can we pls move on?

[baabaa]

Um it was the Monash report and not at number 7 of "Barriers to riding to ride a bike for transport" and Having to wear a helmet but was at 7% and the14th (of 19 reason) see page 6 of summary-

Of interviews with 40 people. And we've no view on the interview content & method. So shaky ground. (Still, it is good to see this sort of work being done).

Also why not reach out to Monash and see what can be done in respect to WA - been a while since I lived and biked in Perth so really out of touch

https://research.monash.edu/en/persons/lauren-pearson

[Thoglette]

So, suggestion to Mods that we split the thread:
1) MHLs - Good/Bad, social effects etc
2) Modern Bicycle Helmets - Are they effective at preventing head trauma?

I suspect the second thread would die very quickly under the weight of evidence proving their effectiveness.

I wondered for quite a while why I was troubled by this suggestion. Until I reminded myself of the Amy Gillet Foundation's support for MHLs, which is entirely based on the efficacy of helmets.

And here is the rub: efficacy is rarely defined but widely touted (and misquoted - see Olivier's works over the years). We have multiple AS/NZ standards for helmets but only AS/NZS 2063:2008 has the magic for cycling.

I'd love to see efficacy out of the debate but the pro MHL crowd (basically, the medicos and the competitive sporting industry) won't let it go.
(For those interested in the smoking guns, please see the submissions to the 2015 Economic Reference Committee "Personal Choice and Community Impacts" hearings and to the BN MHL review in 2017. )

[Thoglette]

But for utility transport MHLs are a significant barrier.

Does the term (and activity) Utility Transport automatically preclude any and all PPE or activity specific clothing? Genuine question, I’ve never seen it explained explicitly.

Good question.

I would say "not specifically". In that raincoats, gloves and glasses are (in my observation) often included if the weather warrants. Certainly in the UK I saw a fair bit of people choosing to wear hi-viz & helmets to do the shopping. However, once you cross the channel it's becomes rare. I'm pretty sure I saw some (non-work specific) Hiviz in Holland when I was there in early 2020 but definitely no helmet use. Rain or wind proof hats were much more common. Indeed, almost essential (it was snowing the day before I arrived).

Again, the vast majority of riders were on their way somewhere, so were dressed for the destination and layers of weather protection were added on top. I saw more "gym like" clothing in London, suggesting some people had EOT facilities they were using. In cities it's hard to separate the commuting from incidental trips as there's a lot more people who are within 5km of work (or the station)

[BobtheBuilder]

But for utility transport MHLs are a significant barrier.

Does the term (and activity) Utility Transport automatically preclude any and all PPE or activity specific clothing? Genuine question, I’ve never seen it explained explicitly.

Good question.

I would say "not specifically". In that raincoats, gloves and glasses are (in my observation) often included if the weather warrants. Certainly in the UK I saw a fair bit of people choosing to wear hi-viz & helmets to do the shopping. However, once you cross the channel it's becomes rare. I'm pretty sure I saw some (non-work specific) Hiviz in Holland when I was there in early 2020 but definitely no helmet use. Rain or wind proof hats were much more common. Indeed, almost essential (it was snowing the day before I arrived).

Again, the vast majority of riders were on their way somewhere, so were dressed for the destination and layers of weather protection were added on top. I saw more "gym like" clothing in London, suggesting some people had EOT facilities they were using. In cities it's hard to separate the commuting from incidental trips as there's a lot more people who are within 5km of work (or the station)

In the UK there's still a strong public belief in the efficacy of helmets and the necessity of reflective clothing, etc., etc. Get on Twitter and see the battles - they're pretty epic! Even though they haven't gone down the MHL route, there is still a lot of "blame the cyclist" mentality about.

For me, the biggest safety device on a bike is a rear mirror.

In Europe (in 2019 I spent five months with my partner and our then one year old riding from the Black sea to the Atlantic) I rarely noticed helmets, except on sports bikes, most particularly in France where sport road riding is pretty big. But apart from that (like in the NT, where MHLs are effectively not enforced and don't apply on footpaths), people are just in their normal clothes, without a helmet, riding to where they're going.

[brumby33]

Does the term (and activity) Utility Transport automatically preclude any and all PPE or activity specific clothing? Genuine question, I’ve never seen it explained explicitly.

Good question.

I would say "not specifically". In that raincoats, gloves and glasses are (in my observation) often included if the weather warrants. Certainly in the UK I saw a fair bit of people choosing to wear hi-viz & helmets to do the shopping. However, once you cross the channel it's becomes rare. I'm pretty sure I saw some (non-work specific) Hiviz in Holland when I was there in early 2020 but definitely no helmet use. Rain or wind proof hats were much more common. Indeed, almost essential (it was snowing the day before I arrived).

Again, the vast majority of riders were on their way somewhere, so were dressed for the destination and layers of weather protection were added on top. I saw more "gym like" clothing in London, suggesting some people had EOT facilities they were using. In cities it's hard to separate the commuting from incidental trips as there's a lot more people who are within 5km of work (or the station)

In the UK there's still a strong public belief in the efficacy of helmets and the necessity of reflective clothing, etc., etc. Get on Twitter and see the battles - they're pretty epic! Even though they haven't gone down the MHL route, there is still a lot of "blame the cyclist" mentality about.

For me, the biggest safety device on a bike is a rear mirror.

In Europe (in 2019 I spent five months with my partner and our then one year old riding from the Black sea to the Atlantic) I rarely noticed helmets, except on sports bikes, most particularly in France where sport road riding is pretty big. But apart from that (like in the NT, where MHLs are effectively not enforced and don't apply on footpaths), people are just in their normal clothes, without a helmet, riding to where they're going.

It's interesting really, cycling in the UK which has a huge participation rate compared to Australia by percentage. I know they haven't gone down the MHL road yet but I can understand the importance to reflective cycling wear, considering the general weather over there. There's also a lot more cycling gear available to the Poms compared to here, I suppose being so close to Europe. They do however have much the same if not worse issues as we do in our bigger Capitol Cities with motorists and more of them.

[DavidS]

The thing is that many ride around on a scooter without a helmet and they seem to get away with it. Do that on a bicycle and you get stopped by the cops.

Stop making things up!
Do you ride on a bicycle without a helmet?
If so, have you ever "been stopped by the cops" and then so, been questioned on why not?
If yes again ever been fined for not using one.
No? Thought not.

Again your endless factoids such as these highlights the narrow minded absurdity of this never ending "discussion" and why it goes nowhere.

Can you not comprehend what others highlight have highlighted here?
The policing of helmets is rare.
People in Aust are riding around on bikes without helmets today.
They did so last week, last month and have done so for years
If MHL is really such a problem to you and if you do want any change, stick to simple clear facts and then use them to argue to the people that count around the real needs for this change.

Suggest you read the recent Monash Uni report on how few people in Vic really care about MHL and then the 2022 Bike Portland counts and on page 10 about the high helmet usage in a country without MHL
https://www.portland.gov/transportation ... t/download


More importantly you should watch this...
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfro ... ised-world

What an astounding post, and you wonder why we object to being told we have to wear a helmet while riding . . . by authoritarians like you.

Your assumptions show your complete lack of respect for other peoples' right to their views and your easy willingness to make crap up. And you accuse me of making things up?

You are a disgrace.

To answer your incredibly stupid questions - yes, I have been pulled up by the police when not wearing a helmet, with lights and sirens going.

So your arrogant assumption is completely and utterly incorrect because it was made up.

I do not ride without a helmet often because I have been pulled up and have better things to do with a couple of hundred dollars than pay stupid helmet fines.

If you wish to come here and just make up lies about other peoples' experience then please just go away.

If you are willing to pay any helmet fines I will gladly, enthusiastically, ride without a helmet - willing to put your money where your mouth is? 99% of my riding is commuting, maybe 50% on roads and 50% on bike paths, often in traffic . . . you willing to back up your fictions with real action?

I will await your answer as I am not so arrogant and bereft of manners that I think I can assume your answer.

DS

[g-boaf]

May I remind you all to play nicely please.

[fat and old]

yes, I have been pulled up by the police when not wearing a helmet, with lights and sirens going.

DS

Lights and Sirens? I believe you, but fair dinkum, did you laugh at them? I wouldn't have been able to control myself

[bychosis]

yes, I have been pulled up by the police when not wearing a helmet, with lights and sirens going.

DS

Lights and Sirens? I believe you, but fair dinkum, did you laugh at them? I wouldn't have been able to control myself

Sometimes they just have an agenda. Many moons ago I rode through a pedestrian crossing. There was a pedestrian about to step out who probably hesitated a bit as a went through at about 25km/h. Yes, my bad but no real harm. IMO it was a 50/50 call wether to stop or not. About 5km later I turned right and a police car, lights and siren, pulled me over to ‘discuss’. I pleaded ‘bad call’ on my part, apologised and got a warning, but I’m gonna guess that in those km they took to follow me they probably passed another infraction or two off a motorised vehicle.

[BobtheBuilder]

yes, I have been pulled up by the police when not wearing a helmet, with lights and sirens going.

DS

Lights and Sirens? I believe you, but fair dinkum, did you laugh at them? I wouldn't have been able to control myself

I remember back in my bike couriers days in Sydney in the late '90s they had undercover cops tasked to ping riders for riding on the footpaths! A stupid law as it is (which we thankfully don't have in the NT), and a ridiculous use of resources, considering how dangerously motor vehicles were routinely operated! (to be fair, bike couriers were often pretty wild as far as conforming to the road rules!)

On footpaths, about five years ago I was in Coffs Harbour (NSW), helmetless (my mate, a local, had told me I'd be right), and rode around a vehicle parked into a driveway. Turns out is was occupied by plain-clothes detectives, who pulled me up for a civil chat. Once I did the "I'm from the NT and I didn't know" thing, they were fine, but told me I would usually be up for a few hundred dollars in fines!

[BobtheBuilder]

yes, I have been pulled up by the police when not wearing a helmet, with lights and sirens going.

DS

Lights and Sirens? I believe you, but fair dinkum, did you laugh at them? I wouldn't have been able to control myself

Sometimes they just have an agenda. Many moons ago I rode through a pedestrian crossing. There was a pedestrian about to step out who probably hesitated a bit as a went through at about 25km/h. Yes, my bad but no real harm. IMO it was a 50/50 call wether to stop or not. About 5km later I turned right and a police car, lights and siren, pulled me over to ‘discuss’. I pleaded ‘bad call’ on my part, apologised and got a warning, but I’m gonna guess that in those km they took to follow me they probably passed another infraction or two off a motorised vehicle.

I remember my brother in Bondi beach getting fined for part-riding his bike across a pedestrian crossing! A few hundred dollars.

Then again, my other brother, half-cut and with Christmas antlers on his head, helmetless and no lights, a few hours past sunset, also at Bondi beach, pulling up next to cops at the lights. They asked about his helmet and he said he didn't have one, but don't worry, we were going to go on the back streets, and they more or less said Merry Christmas and ride safe!

You just never know, but NSW is mad for rules, rules, rules and never knowing if and when they'll be applied.

[P!N20]

with Christmas antlers on his head

Please provide data that shows Christmas antlers are effective in a collision.

[BobtheBuilder]

with Christmas antlers on his head

Please provide data that shows Christmas antlers are effective in a collision.

Don't think there is any, but clearly they were correlational to being effective in fine prevention.

[DavidS]

yes, I have been pulled up by the police when not wearing a helmet, with lights and sirens going.

DS

Lights and Sirens? I believe you, but fair dinkum, did you laugh at them? I wouldn't have been able to control myself

Haha, no, I was trying to come up with an excuse so I wouldn't get a fine, it worked!

I've also avoided a fine because it was raining and the cops couldn't be bothered getting out to give me a ticket. Just got told off.

They are the ones I remember but I've been told off a fair number of times, have managed to talk my way out of fines

One of the funnier incidents, where I was wearing a fine avoidance hat, was when the cops old me off for passing a tram in Swanston St Melbourne. I had a pedestrian walk out in front of me, I missed her and she apologised. The police sidle up and ask me why I passed the tram, I explained that the tram was moving so no need for me to stop. Then they said that I had passed them when they were stopped, without thinking I just said they were not in a tram. They said I would get a follow up . . . nothing ever turned up. The irony was that I knew all about the laws relating to passing a tram, I had been a tram driver some years earlier.

DS

[BobtheBuilder]

https://twitter.com/2wheelsnot4/status/ ... 6823693313

This is where the helmet obsession gets us. "Cars" "collide" with "cyclists" - who are then blamed, including for not having a helmet on! When the "driver" (not the "car") was speeding and helmets aren't designed for impacts over 20km/h.