Fantastic. And a very happy birthday to you.grt046 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:50 pmAlso tried a Orbea Gain M20 out in the carpark for fit and feel and have bitten the bullet and committed to one for delivery next week in time for my 80th b'day. A bit expensive but hey you can't take it with you.
Hope it works out in allowing me to continue to ride with my mates for a few years yet.
Why ebikes are good / bad
- RonK
- Posts: 11508
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
- Location: If you need to know, ask me
- Contact:
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby RonK » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:05 pm
- grt046
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:53 pm
- Location: Brisbane Northside
-
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Janice » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:52 am
Nice bike. Congratulations.grt046 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:50 pmI am getting a bit long in the tooth and am starting to struggle particularly on the hills when riding with my mates all of whom are 10 or more years younger.
I decided to check out the E Road bike scene and had the opportunity for a short test ride of the entry level Specialized Turbo Creo E5 over a 5.5km hilly course (65m up) Managed an average of 27 kph with 80% of the ride over 25 with no assistance. The same route with my Defy Adv resulted in a 20.5 average with similar heartbeat range on both.
Also tried a Orbea Gain M20 out in the carpark for fit and feel and have bitten the bullet and committed to one for delivery next week in time for my 80th b'day. A bit expensive but hey you can't take it with you.
Hope it works out in allowing me to continue to ride with my mates for a few years yet.
-
- Posts: 1122
- Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
- Location: Bowral
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby celeste boy » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:15 pm
Goes out now even on non-group ride days.
- Mububban
- Posts: 3073
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:19 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Mububban » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:36 pm
- grt046
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:53 pm
- Location: Brisbane Northside
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby grt046 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:49 pm
Thanks Mububban,
Five rides in and I am sure I have made the right decision. What a blast
-
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Janice » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:17 am
Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.
A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.
- Comedian
- Posts: 9166
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Comedian » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:32 am
Thanks for sharing. It's interesting - if enough people break the law then it's easier to change the law than to address the issues.Janice wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:17 amhttps://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments
Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.
A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.
I'm pretty darn sure this is what the whole scooter industry is hoping for.
- Comedian
- Posts: 9166
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Comedian » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:02 am
The issue as I see it is the difference in the cycling environment. We don't have direct off road routes, and most people have to travel further to make the trip by bike. They also often have to use roads with cars because paths don't connect.
So our solution is to try and make the bikes faster and more car like rather than address the cycling environment.
We have a PMD "explosion" in Brisbane now and we're seeing big rises in injuries. Yes these devices are a great solution for our cities but it has to be done carefully and safely.“In all Australian jurisdictions, e-bikes are subject to speed and power limits which are modest by international standards,” NSW Productivity Commissioner Peter Achterstraat said.
- trailgumby
- Posts: 15469
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
- Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
- Contact:
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby trailgumby » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:19 pm
From one perspective, it demonstrates evidence of demand.Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:32 amThanks for sharing. It's interesting - if enough people break the law then it's easier to change the law than to address the issues.Janice wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:17 amhttps://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments
Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.
A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.
I'm pretty darn sure this is what the whole scooter industry is hoping for.
We are in the same boat with unsanctioned mountain bike trails in Sydney's northern beaches. We have been told by consultants employed by NPWS that unsanctioned trails are required and used as evidence of demand. NPWS desperately wants to increase visitation, and mountain bikers are a key visitor group, but they have no funds for trail building. So consequently, they turn a blind eye and have scaled back investigation and enforcement, with a view to later auditing and sanctioning the trails that are built.
The downside is that a lot of trails get built in EEC zones and other areas where they should not be, due to lack of communication. But if we don't build and ride these unsanctioned trails, there is no evidence of demand. Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Same with these PMDs I guess.
- Comedian
- Posts: 9166
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Comedian » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:12 pm
Not really. Evidence of trail demand is a thing.trailgumby wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:19 pmFrom one perspective, it demonstrates evidence of demand.Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:32 amThanks for sharing. It's interesting - if enough people break the law then it's easier to change the law than to address the issues.Janice wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:17 amhttps://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/set ... l#comments
Speed and power caps on electric bikes should be lifted to increase their takeup as a viable transport solution, reduce road traffic and boost cargo delivery efficiency.
A NSW Productivity Commission paper has called for a national review of the laws relating to electric bicycles. It suggests that removing modest speed caps would improve road safety, given many of the bikes are being illegally and dangerously converted without regulation.
I'm pretty darn sure this is what the whole scooter industry is hoping for.
We are in the same boat with unsanctioned mountain bike trails in Sydney's northern beaches. We have been told by consultants employed by NPWS that unsanctioned trails are required and used as evidence of demand. NPWS desperately wants to increase visitation, and mountain bikers are a key visitor group, but they have no funds for trail building. So consequently, they turn a blind eye and have scaled back investigation and enforcement, with a view to later auditing and sanctioning the trails that are built.
The downside is that a lot of trails get built in EEC zones and other areas where they should not be, due to lack of communication. But if we don't build and ride these unsanctioned trails, there is no evidence of demand. Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Same with these PMDs I guess.
PMD's capable of 60, 80, and even 100kph is not something that I think is comparable. One is demand issue - the other a significant safety issue.
Most PMD's in QLD are legal to own, but illegal to use. The shops know they are selling products that are illegal to use. The people buying them also know they are illegal to use.
I went to a "roundtable" last week. I do know the scooter advocates were seeking to get the speed limit for PMD's raised to 40 before the meeting. Strangely though.. it might have been the talk by the Jameson Trauma institute.. where on ER doctor said that just his ER at one hospital were a number of admissions a day due to PMD crashes. And not trivial ones either. I dunno .. but the scooter advocates didn't seem to mention it.. I should note that many of these crashes were due to commercial PMD, but we've had a number of private PMD's involved in deaths in the last few months.
I mean have a listen to the Jameson guy talk. 800 admissions in 15 months across three hospitals in BNE. Are illegal trails causing anything like this?
I can understand why people in other states can't understand what we're seeing up here. Due to law changes and a lack of enforcement by QPS QLD really is the scooter capital of Australia.
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/brisbane/p ... s/13618866
- Thoglette
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Thoglette » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:36 pm
Which I’ve said before is a really strange speed: not fast enough to be travelling with traffic (like a WA R-N moped), but too fast to be safe on shared paths or if you need to dismount in a hurry (eg in the presence of “honky nuts” or similar)
In WA
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
- Comedian
- Posts: 9166
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Comedian » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:42 am
I'm not sure how much strategy happens with scooter advocates. I'm sure they are just like bike people, with jobs and lives and are just trying to make things better for their chosen mode. It's a new thing too.. it's unlikely they are very organised yet.
However I'm sure that long term it was intended to be a point that they could advance from.. Ie increase from there hopefully.
Part of me says 25 on a big open sparsely populated bike way must seem pretty slow. At the moment PMD are not allowed on roads near cars so I don't think that's much of an issue.. but if they are allowed on proper roads than it will be. I think no matter what speed you choose people will want more. It's just human nature. And if you take it away from a device limit and start putting actual speed limits on certain areas then it's just going to be a whole bag of hurt.
Personally I think while ever people are buying these vehicles that are capable of much higher speeds then it's just always going to be a problem. I mean walk into a shop in the valley and come out with a scooter capable of 100kph. I could do that this morning. We don't have the legislative framework or the cycle network to accomodate devices like these.
I think it's just easier to just ban the sale and use of them and the sooner the better. Unfortunately I believe that's a fed thing..
- Thoglette
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Thoglette » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:35 pm
Import is a fed thing. As is twisting the arms of the states (see MHLs).
But roadway and pathway use is a state (and council) thing, generally.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
- Comedian
- Posts: 9166
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Comedian » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:32 pm
It would seem that getting the feds to do anything is all but impossible with the current mob unless it's something that's important to them. Can't see PMD's getting on the list.
- RonK
- Posts: 11508
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
- Location: If you need to know, ask me
- Contact:
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby RonK » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:22 pm
A red herring I think. Numbers intended to shock, but lacking in balance. Where are the Jameson stats on bicycle-related admissions?
No doubt it would be inconvenient to compare. The most recent statistics I have been able to locate reporting on bicycle related injuries was published by the predecessor to the Jameson group - the Queensland Injury Surveillance Unit in 2005 and covers the injury statistics for the period from mid-1998 to 2004. It makes sobering reading:
"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."
Quite likely the current injury rate is even higher. Changes the perspective relative to scooter injuries I think.
And of course, Australian cyclists have lobby groups like Jameson to thank for MHL - something that hardly any other country in the world deems necessary.
https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/qi ... tin-86.pdf
- Comedian
- Posts: 9166
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Comedian » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:11 am
Well.. scooters have only really been legal for a couple of years. While their numbers are increasing rapidly they are still only a fraction of bicycle usage. And those figures were only three hospitals in Brisbane. Personally I wouldn't be calling that one yet. Perhaps this is worth a watch too which is a full talk by the Jameson people. I would also be questioning - why are these guys ringing the bell? I got the impression that they were very concerned about this new class on injury. They seem to think they are dangerous.RonK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:22 pmA red herring I think. Numbers intended to shock, but lacking in balance. Where are the Jameson stats on bicycle-related admissions?
No doubt it would be inconvenient to compare. The most recent statistics I have been able to locate reporting on bicycle related injuries was published by the predecessor to the Jameson group - the Queensland Injury Surveillance Unit in 2005 and covers the injury statistics for the period from mid-1998 to 2004. It makes sobering reading:
"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."
Quite likely the current injury rate is even higher. Changes the perspective relative to scooter injuries I think.
And of course, Australian cyclists have lobby groups like Jameson to thank for MHL - something that hardly any other country in the world deems necessary.
https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/qi ... tin-86.pdf
I agree there needs to be much much more data and research on PMD's. At the moment there is a little bit on hire scooters and virtually none on private scooters. When someone says "one less car" I would love to see that backed up. I would love to know what modes PMD users are coming from, and how much actual utility scooting there is etc etc.
- Thoglette
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:01 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Thoglette » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:29 pm
And that’ll be everything from Downhill MTB pro-am events to license-less drunks tripping over their feet to people run over by SMIDSY/IDGAF drivers.
They are meaningless numbers.
Heck more than twice that number die at work in QLD (2017 QLD worksafe notified fatalities)
Should you not go to work based on that number?
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
- trailgumby
- Posts: 15469
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
- Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
- Contact:
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby trailgumby » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:45 pm
Agreed, context is everything. And to provide further context, the rates should be provided on a per-exposure-hour basis, and compared to bicycles and motor vehicles, single versus multi-vehicle, and at-fault or not. Some root cause analysis (such as path surface conditions) would help direct mitigation.RonK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:22 pmA red herring I think. Numbers intended to shock, but lacking in balance. Where are the Jameson stats on bicycle-related admissions?
No doubt it would be inconvenient to compare. The most recent statistics I have been able to locate reporting on bicycle related injuries was published by the predecessor to the Jameson group - the Queensland Injury Surveillance Unit in 2005 and covers the injury statistics for the period from mid-1998 to 2004. It makes sobering reading:
"There are approx 6000 ED presentations and almost 10 deaths each year from bicycle related injury in Queensland."
Quite likely the current injury rate is even higher. Changes the perspective relative to scooter injuries I think.
And of course, Australian cyclists have lobby groups like Jameson to thank for MHL - something that hardly any other country in the world deems necessary.
https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/qi ... tin-86.pdf
"800 admissions in 15 months" is, unfortunately, meaningless. It provides no useful basis for decision-making.
-
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Janice » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:27 pm
In Canada, the limit is 32km/h. In USA, it ranges between 32 and 45km/h. Why choose the European standard over the North American standard? Surely Sydney is more Los Angeles than Copenhagen.Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:02 amAnd let's be clear.. Australian power and speed standards aren't modest by international standards. They are the same as all of Europe which is where the standards were adopted from.
The issue as I see it is the difference in the cycling environment. We don't have direct off road routes, and most people have to travel further to make the trip by bike. They also often have to use roads with cars because paths don't connect.
So our solution is to try and make the bikes faster and more car like rather than address the cycling environment.
We have a PMD "explosion" in Brisbane now and we're seeing big rises in injuries. Yes these devices are a great solution for our cities but it has to be done carefully and safely.“In all Australian jurisdictions, e-bikes are subject to speed and power limits which are modest by international standards,” NSW Productivity Commissioner Peter Achterstraat said.
Why is 25km/h the magic number? My guess is that is the speed an average person can ride. That is the wrong question. It should be what speed can we allow an unlicensed rider. 45 is too fast for someone who hasn't ridden since school. 32 seems to be more reasonable.
I don't know what you mean by off road routes. Do you mean bike paths?
I know that I am in the minority, but I have no problem with rego and licence for ebikes.
Instead of building bike paths I would lower the limit to 40km/h for everyone and I would allow anyone to ride on the footpath at 10km/h.
- Gordonhooker
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 9:11 pm
- Location: Redlands
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:47 am
---Janice wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:27 pmIn Canada, the limit is 32km/h. In USA, it ranges between 32 and 45km/h. Why choose the European standard over the North American standard? Surely Sydney is more Los Angeles than Copenhagen.Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:02 amAnd let's be clear.. Australian power and speed standards aren't modest by international standards. They are the same as all of Europe which is where the standards were adopted from.
The issue as I see it is the difference in the cycling environment. We don't have direct off road routes, and most people have to travel further to make the trip by bike. They also often have to use roads with cars because paths don't connect.
So our solution is to try and make the bikes faster and more car like rather than address the cycling environment.
We have a PMD "explosion" in Brisbane now and we're seeing big rises in injuries. Yes these devices are a great solution for our cities but it has to be done carefully and safely.“In all Australian jurisdictions, e-bikes are subject to speed and power limits which are modest by international standards,” NSW Productivity Commissioner Peter Achterstraat said.
Why is 25km/h the magic number? My guess is that is the speed an average person can ride. That is the wrong question. It should be what speed can we allow an unlicensed rider. 45 is too fast for someone who hasn't ridden since school. 32 seems to be more reasonable.
I don't know what you mean by off road routes. Do you mean bike paths?
I know that I am in the minority, but I have no problem with rego and licence for ebikes.
Instead of building bike paths I would lower the limit to 40km/h for everyone and I would allow anyone to ride on the footpath at 10km/h.
I am quite happy with the 25km/h limit and I don't know why anyone would want to go much faster on a bike anyway, I ride to enjoy myself and look at the world at a slower pace. Definitely would be anti registration requirements for ebikes, one of the reasons I sold my Harley was because I am retiring next year and don't want to have multiple vehicle rego's hanging over my head.
They are my thoughts on the subject for what it is worth...
- Gordonhooker
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 9:11 pm
- Location: Redlands
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:52 am
There seems to be quite a lot of posts regarding scooter's in this thread - I was hoping for just ebike content as that is what I am interested in.
Is there another area that is just about ebikes here?
- trailgumby
- Posts: 15469
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:30 pm
- Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney
- Contact:
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby trailgumby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:38 pm
'Gordonhooker wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:52 amHi All,
There seems to be quite a lot of posts regarding scooter's in this thread - I was hoping for just ebike content as that is what I am interested in.
Is there another area that is just about ebikes here?
Thread drift is a fact of life on the internets. Why? You're interacting with people.
-
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:52 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby skyblot » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:41 pm
That would be because they don't want an e-assist bicycle, but instead really want an e-motorbike they can ride safely away from traffic, on bike paths/shared paths etc.Gordonhooker wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:47 amI am quite happy with the 25km/h limit and I don't know why anyone would want to go much faster on a bike anyway, ...
- feral grasshopper
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:13 pm
- Location: Adelaide SA
Re: Why ebikes are good / bad
Postby feral grasshopper » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:17 pm
Reality is that there are many different types of riders, many different purposes and what suits one might not suit another. It is not always easy to imagine another’s experience but that does not mean that that experience is not valid. I’d like to be able to go a little faster, but no, I don’t secretly want a motor bike. Been there, done that! And if I wanted a motor bike, I’d get one!skyblot wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:41 pmThat would be because they don't want an e-assist bicycle, but instead really want an e-motorbike they can ride safely away from traffic, on bike paths/shared paths etc.Gordonhooker wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:47 amI am quite happy with the 25km/h limit and I don't know why anyone would want to go much faster on a bike anyway, ...
What I don’t want to do is prescribe or proscribe for anyone else on the basis of my own desires!
- General Australian Cycling Topics
- Info / announcements
- Buying a bike / parts
- General Cycling Discussion
- The Bike Shed
- Cycling Health
- Cycling Safety and Advocacy
- Women's Cycling
- Bike & Gear Reviews
- Cycling Trade
- Stolen Bikes
- Bicycle FAQs
- The Market Place
- Member to Member Bike and Gear Sales
- Want to Buy, Group Buy, Swap
- My Bikes or Gear Elsewhere
- Serious Biking
- Audax / Randonneuring
- Retro biking
- Commuting
- MTB
- Recumbents
- Fixed Gear/ Single Speed
- Track
- Electric Bicycles
- Cyclocross and Gravel Grinding
- Dragsters / Lowriders / Cruisers
- Children's Bikes
- Cargo Bikes and Utility Cycling
- Road Racing
- Road Biking
- Training
- Time Trial
- Triathlon
- International and National Tours and Events
- Cycle Touring
- Touring Australia
- Touring Overseas
- Touring Bikes and Equipment
- Australia
- Western Australia
- New South Wales
- Queensland
- South Australia
- Victoria
- ACT
- Tasmania
- Northern Territory
- Country & Regional
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
- All times are UTC+10:00
- Top
- Delete cookies
About the Australian Cycling Forums
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
Bicycles Network Australia
Forum Information
Connect with BNA
This website uses affiliate links to retail platforms including ebay, amazon, proviz and ribble.