Have I got this right?...
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Have I got this right?...
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:00 am
Question is...is this to steep for me or dosen't it really matter...I could stay in the 23 most of the way on a 34 front...but I feel I could push better on a not so steep climb...or dosen't it matter.I will do a proper test in the weeks to come on a climb that I can do 20 minutes solid climbing with no flat spots.But I feel I still had some left in the tank at the end of 14minutes and could have kept that pace for a few more minutes for sure...actually must of had a fair bit more in the tank because the next 60kms were very hard and fast!!!...got to love spring .
Now I just need a power meter!!!.
PS the weight for the bike is right...heavy training bike / 2 bottles / winter clothing.
PPS...also I am probably not totally accurate on the total meters climbed as I can only go off MapMyRide...but it would be fairly close,I suppose doing a longer climb will help with accuracy...or buy a garmin!.
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Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:45 am
But if I can lose 15 kilos and improve 10% I will be flying!!!.
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Postby sogood » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:23 am
Given that the locals have used the Waterfall hill for these test successfully, I'd think that the 280m elevation gain you used is good enough for an accurate test. I can't see any reason why you'd want to go to a 20% grade to kill yourself on.
I understand that table isn't absolute but is good enough as a rough reference. The fact that it didn't place you in the Cat 4 or 1 groups suggests that your measurement is on par. In any case, the numbers obtained are only good for your own reference rather than for any comparative use with others. So it's good enough. Just come back to test yourself again in another 3-6 months time.
My understanding is, once you have the power numbers, you can reverse the equation and extrapolate your results for TTs and other related activities.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby snedden9485 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:42 am
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Postby snedden9485 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:55 am
Stats for climb and then my stats
Total Distance:
2.71km | 1.68mi
Starting Altitude:
148m | 486ft
Finishing Altitude:
363m | 1,191ft
Average Gradient: 8.3%
Elevation Gain:
215m | 705ft
Power required to overcome gravitational resistance: 255 watts.
Power required to overcome rolling resistance: 16 watts.
Power required to overcome aerodynamic resistance: 11 watts.
Total power required: 282 watts.
Watts per Kg: 3.89
Watts per Kg with bike: 3.38
According to SoGoods table, it puts me around the Cat3 level. Im pretty happy with that for now!
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:31 pm
The "FT" column refers to maximal power output for about 1-hour.
I'm guessing you did that climb in ~ 10-11 minutes?
You would have to discount your 10-minute power somewhat to compare to the FT (60-min) power column.
Put it this way, it'll be somewhere between the 5-min & FT columns on that table.
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Postby snedden9485 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:42 pm
Well thats puts me around the lower cat 3 / high cat 4.
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:02 pm
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... iling.aspx
The first thing to realise is that the table is not an indicator of racing level. It just indicates what is typical for racers at those levels.
The only way to know what category you can race at, is to race.
"The best predictor of performance is performance itself" - A. Coggan
Its primary purpose is to provide an indication of your overall power profile (your maximal power at various durations), assess the shape of the profile and identify individual strengths and weakness relative to your target events so that training can be adjusted accordingly.
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Re: Have I got this right?...
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:14 pm
If you are trying to estimate power from climbing, then I suggest, where possible, to find a climb with a fairly consistent gradient. Or at least one where the gradient doesn't flatten out much along the way for any appreciable distance/time.toolonglegs wrote:Question is...is this to steep for me or dosen't it really matter...
With quite variable gradients, the contributions to resistance forces by gravity, rolling and air resistance will vary somewhat and introduce errors into equations which are based on the overall time/averages. Although once you go past 7% it's pretty much all about gravity. Less than 5% and you really need to be taking into account your Coefficients of rolling resistance and drag/frontal area as the variance from some assumption will begin to affect the answer somewhat.
I would recommend using
analyticcycling.com
for making power / speed estimations
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Postby sogood » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:54 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Have I got this right?...
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:56 pm
Thanks Alex...like I say I was'nt planning to do a test until I was half way to the hills...if I have more time I will go to a better hill...I just need to find a more constant climb of around 8-12% with no dips for about 8km.That should give me 20 minutes....the hard part is finding one that dosen't ramp up to 20% too often!.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:If you are trying to estimate power from climbing, then I suggest, where possible, to find a climb with a fairly consistent gradient. Or at least one where the gradient doesn't flatten out much along the way for any appreciable distance/time.toolonglegs wrote:Question is...is this to steep for me or dosen't it really matter...
With quite variable gradients, the contributions to resistance forces by gravity, rolling and air resistance will vary somewhat and introduce errors into equations which are based on the overall time/averages. Although once you go past 7% it's pretty much all about gravity. Less than 5% and you really need to be taking into account your Coefficients of rolling resistance and drag/frontal area as the variance from some assumption will begin to affect the answer somewhat.
I would recommend using
analyticcycling.com
for making power / speed estimations
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:51 pm
Well all but one of my clients uses a power metersogood wrote:Alex, you must have done it or know people who have done it. How well does the power calculated from raw numbers of a Waterfall hill climb (elevation, distance, duration) correlate with actual PM measurement? I read people recommending it for this test.
But I've done a TT effort up Waterfall once, so I'll trawl back through the files and see if there's enough data there.
Has anyone done a Map My Ride reference for that climb?
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:10 pm
Some things look a bit weird, and I suspect the MMR elevations might be wrong (I've seen that before). MMR suggests the average gradient is ~4.6%.
Here's the detailed pacing analysis:
I then ran the numbers against a straight out average gradient vs average power and it doesn't quite stack up. Calculated power required is out by about 6%.
I would say that Waterfall HC has too many flatter sections to be used a good estimate of power but you'd probably get to within 5-10%. That's too big a gap for my liking.
However, from the POV of simply comparing times up the climb, then it's a good test. But a more consistent and higher gradient would be better choice.
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Postby mikesbytes » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:36 pm
Toolong, it sounds like if we did Oately together again this Aussie winter, it wouldn't be me who would be first up the hills.
mikesbytes wrote:Well toolong and I did something different today, we entered the St George handicap race at Oately.
A couple of laps before indicated that there was only 2 states to the circuit, uphill and downhill. Toolong and I went off the same handicap, with 3 other riders, but today it was mikebytes lighter body that won over toolongs stronger legs, with toolong dropping off a couple of times and climbing back on to our group, before it was one hill too many.
I stayed with the group and we picked up riders from the group in front and later the group in front of that.
On the last lap I attacked going up the hill and dropped all of the riders but 2, one from our group and one of the tacker-on-ers. In the end it was the other guy in my group who won the group, but can't complain, still got 2nd out of the 5. Both him and another guy in the group scored personal bests and that can be contributed to having toolong and I in the group, more numbers make it stronger.
End time was 42m 52s for 24k, that's 33.8kph average over pure hill. Can't complain about that, can I.
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:32 pm
Basically that's the one. Start at the bridge at the bottom just near the T-intersection and end at a speed sign I think it is on the flat bit before you turn left to cross the bridge over the railway tracks/highway.mikesbytes wrote:By Waterfall hill, I'm assuming we are referring to exiting the park at Waterfall Station. Then that elevation chart shows what I'd I'd expect that being the steeper sections at the beginning and end, with what some describe as false flat in the middle. Your power output shows you taking it a tad easier on the false flat and then switching off when you could see the railway tracks.
Yeah - if you look at my actual power line (yellow) and compare to the green line (optimal power), you'll see I started too hard and faded, making the pacing of the opening 1.6km sub-optimal. Then I settled in at about the right level for the rest of the ride, perhaps lost concentration at the end where it flattened out.
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Postby sogood » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:59 pm
Thanks for digging the data out. Oh well, keep looking. But you are right, it could be a good ITT reference. The only unfortunate issue is that the only time we ride that hill is when we do the RNP via Audley. Which means that by the time we tackle the Waterfall hill, we are already half dead.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:OK, I went back to power data to have a look...
However, from the POV of simply comparing times up the climb, then it's a good test. But a more consistent and higher gradient would be better choice.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby sogood » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:03 am
It's so easy to just let the legs relax when approaching or at the crest. There must be some mental training that can be done to overcome that.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:...perhaps lost concentration at the end where it flattened out.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:41 am
Well I could also have just been stuffed!sogood wrote:It's so easy to just let the legs relax when approaching or at the crest. There must be some mental training that can be done to overcome that.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:...perhaps lost concentration at the end where it flattened out.
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Postby toolonglegs » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:38 am
Yeah weight hasn't changed much...maybee 3 or 4 kilos less but a hell of a lot stronger...and the Cannondale had it's first roll out for 2009 today..boy that felt different I can tell you!!!.mikesbytes wrote:By Waterfall hill, I'm assuming we are referring to exiting the park at Waterfall Station. Then that elevation chart shows what I'd I'd expect that being the steeper sections at the beginning and end, with what some describe as false flat in the middle. Your power output shows you taking it a tad easier on the false flat and then switching off when you could see the railway tracks.
Toolong, it sounds like if we did Oately together again this Aussie winter, it wouldn't be me who would be first up the hills.
mikesbytes wrote:Well toolong and I did something different today, we entered the St George handicap race at Oately.
A couple of laps before indicated that there was only 2 states to the circuit, uphill and downhill. Toolong and I went off the same handicap, with 3 other riders, but today it was mikebytes lighter body that won over toolongs stronger legs, with toolong dropping off a couple of times and climbing back on to our group, before it was one hill too many.
I stayed with the group and we picked up riders from the group in front and later the group in front of that.
On the last lap I attacked going up the hill and dropped all of the riders but 2, one from our group and one of the tacker-on-ers. In the end it was the other guy in my group who won the group, but can't complain, still got 2nd out of the 5. Both him and another guy in the group scored personal bests and that can be contributed to having toolong and I in the group, more numbers make it stronger.
End time was 42m 52s for 24k, that's 33.8kph average over pure hill. Can't complain about that, can I.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:14 pm
On a downside I photographed a mountain running race on Sunday,had to snap the start....then run 500 mts to catch everyone going past then jump in the car and race to the top of a col...jump on my wifes way too small mtb and climb to the summit and then descend a k or 2 too where I had found a good spot....killed myself getting there in time and arrived exactly the same times as the first guys came thru!!!...freaks...snap every one coming thru again then race back to the car and back down the mountain and still missed the first 3 finishing....end result = great pics ( http://shotred.jalbum.net/Trail%20Beaujolais%202009/ ) & HAMMERED back,not stopping me but is weighing me down! ...
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Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:59 pm
It's more than a 15% improvement since it's the denominator you are reducing, rather than the numerator you are increasing.
Your power to weight ratio will go up by more than 15% if you lose 15% in body mass and power remains the same. More like 17.6%.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:12 pm
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Postby sogood » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:49 pm
Better make sure you don't lose any muscle bulk though. A corresponding % in muscle power reduction would get your power/weight ratio to nowhere, and leave you less power on the flats and downhills.toolonglegs wrote:...better keep the diet going then!....that is a nice little step up in performance to be had!.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby toolonglegs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:13 pm
Back in the day ...motorcycle racing days I was in the low 80's...OK that was in my late teens but I was 88 in 2000 and absolutely flying...I think I have at least 10 kilos of fat to lose with out compromising my muscle mass,probably 15...if I remember well in 2000 I could of still lost a few more kilos but it was starting to get hard...but then I was racing mtb a lot as well and definately had a few more kilos of muscle up top.I will see how far I can go before July.sogood wrote:Better make sure you don't lose any muscle bulk though. A corresponding % in muscle power reduction would get your power/weight ratio to nowhere, and leave you less power on the flats and downhills.toolonglegs wrote:...better keep the diet going then!....that is a nice little step up in performance to be had!.
If Maggie could do it at 90 then I can to
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