Ebikes more dangerous than motorbikes?

[mikesbytes]

Agree, Disagree, Something else? What's your views on this video?

[Thoglette]

What's your views on this video?

That watching it would be an utter waste of my time.

$2 to a pinch of horse pucky says it’s either fluffy fact free click bait or complete bollocks based “do your own research” grade data (or analysis) “proving” a predetermined position.

[RonK]

Totally facile - why would you even bother posting such rubbish here?

[redsonic]

Wow to the above comments: I appreciated the link and enjoyed the content. As a motorcyclist, I think the most important difference is the training he mentioned & the culture of road safety. I participated in many advanced rider training courses in the 10 years after gaining my licence because it had been impressed upon me how important continuing active training was. I don't think this even remotely occurs to most people who buy ebikes. The presence of a throttle completely changes the riding dynamics, especially when cornering, and I think training is invaluable to learn to separate throttle inputs from steering and braking. We are talking here, of course, about higher powered, throttle controlled, ebikes such as seem to be very common in the USA. Our restricted pedalecs are a different beast.

[Nobody]

Yes, interesting video. I was faced with the choice to ride a bike, an e-bike, or a motorcycle to commute to work from Hornsby area to the northern beaches (Sydney). For a number of reasons I decided to ride a motorcycle again after some 20 to 30 years off riding one. Safety was a major consideration as to why I chose the motorcycle. Training, differential traffic speed, safety helmet and clothing (which I always wear), a bigger object to be seen on the road and the perception from car drivers that I actually have a right to be there were all factors for me. To be honest I couldn't see myself riding for say 20 years on that commute without being hit by a car at some point. Whether that be deliberate for taking up (unentitled) space on the road (which has happened to me already on a bicycle), or as an accident/incompetence (plenty of that out there too). I've already been hit from behind on that route to work on the motorcycle at a stop sign a couple of years ago (incompetence). Which encouraged me to take a different route to work to avoid that situation again.

As said, some of it doesn't directly apply to Australia. But a lot of it still does IMO.

[RonK]

Wow to the above comments: I appreciated the link and enjoyed the content. As a motorcyclist, I think the most important difference is the training he mentioned & the culture of road safety. I participated in many advanced rider training courses in the 10 years after gaining my licence because it had been impressed upon me how important continuing active training was. I don't think this even remotely occurs to most people who buy ebikes. The presence of a throttle completely changes the riding dynamics, especially when cornering, and I think training is invaluable to learn to separate throttle inputs from steering and braking. We are talking here, of course, about higher powered, throttle controlled, ebikes such as seem to be very common in the USA. Our restricted pedalecs are a different beast.

I’ve ridden motorcycles almost as long as I’ve cycled. Still do, and still attend rider training at times. In fact I’m booked in to one in a couple of weeks time.
As to which is more dangerous - you only have to look at motorcycle fatalities to realise he’s talking cr*p. But I suppose it’s a good post for those with an anti e-bike agenda.

[warthog1]

Ebikes don't particularly interest me but I'm not against them.
Mike is at least posting a new topic for people to discuss and engage with.
We are not exactly seeing excess traffic or posts on here as time goes on.

I see merit in some of the points Nobody made.
Speed differential is concerning when spending time on the road.
There are more distractions than ever in cars.
I too worry about being not seen and hit by passing traffic.

[zebee]

Can't really compare motorcycle fatalities to ebike fatalities unless you have some kind of exposure to compare. Hours ridden, number on the road, something like that.

Motorcycle crash rates came down when compulsory training was introduced for learners. When I got my bike licence it was "ride up the street. Turn right at a roundabout. Ride some more, stop at a stop sign. Ride some more. Turn right into a side street. Do a decent controlled stop from 30kmh. Good oh, here's your licence"

My training consisted of my housemates instructing me on the basics of changing gears and taking me down to the local park (so if I dropped it, it would be on grass) and me practicing slow turns. Which were not tested....

Any post licence training was track based run by race clubs. Nowadays very good training is available pre and post licence but I bet that not that many riders bother. Same as good car driving training is available and not many bother.

I bet that if e-bike training was available, specifically focusing on what makes an e-bike different, that no one would take it unless it was compulsory... What would be nice is good quality bicycle-in-traffic training available to all and heavily promoted. Maybe a voucher for it given away with every e-bike... Because you cab get yourself into trouble more quickly if you aren't puffing and blowing up the hills! HAving to power your own bike can mean you spend more time at slower speeds while learning the physical co-ordination.

[brumby33]

Whether it's an e-bike or regular bicycle, they are really still a bicycle with limited speed capabilities, they all have pedals and some are illegal like those delivery e-bikes that have throttles and often used them on footpaths at 40kph, but are still bicycles non the less, just makes it easier to ride in certain circumstances.
A Motorcycle however can be a huge BMW GS1200 like he has in the video or a Vespa and other scooter which are legal Motorcycles and need to be registered...both modes are vulnerable although a motorcycle has more chance to out accelerate from a dangerous situation.
Both can compliment each other in ways some may not consider, many of you guys do both and so do I although not presently but one thing I noticed that in many cases of people that I know, those who had not ridden a bicycle as a young child or teen will have a smaller chance of succeeding with a motorcycle or they will not develope the confidence of knowing what to do when the pressure is on or things go pair shaped whereas those who had ridden bicycles as a young person will often take to Motorcycles like a duck to water.
I believe, well in my case but also of some friends as kids on bicycles, because we rode the streets and on main roads at times, we do learn the basic rules of the road and how it all works before we get our L's and so it's already a natural thing to take it on the road when we learn how to drive. By the time I was ready for my L's, I knew more about road rules and positioning than most people who had driven for years.

I guess how a bicycle/e-bike and motorcycle go in a commute and traffic environments, it is often determined not just on the rider to look out for themselves but the attitude of the motorist such as the case where a bicycle is often on the side of the roadway and can easily get squeezed out because well...they don't pay rego do they, whereas the motorcycles is regoed and claims the lane like a car and is more easily seen....but on saying that, whether it's a bicycle or motorcycle coming down a long road, to a car coming out of a side road, both bikes are in a linear line of sight and their speed is often misjudged and that's when bad accidents happen. And despite what other motorcyclists or cyclists think....none of them will out brake a car...a car is far superior at stopping than any of the 3.


brumby33

[mikesbytes]

Different views, I expected that. The comments about invisibility in the video appear to be a real threat to all forms of transport smaller than vehicle being driven by the motorist of concern. Human beings are programed to notice things that provide rewards or are of danger to themselves

[brumby33]

Different views, I expected that. The comments about invisibility in the video appear to be a real threat to all forms of transport smaller than vehicle being driven by the motorist of concern. Human beings are programed to notice things that provide rewards or are of danger to themselves

And increasingly HATE inconveniences....eg: stuck behind a bicycle or even a bus.
It's interesting to watch actually, especially those who buy Mercs and Beemers in an Auction but that already have at least 250,000 K's on the clock but make them look wealthy and important. They get stuck momentarily behind my bus as I have to pick up a Passenger at a bus stop, so when they do get around me, they absolutely floor it as if there's no tomorrow just to make up time they lost....this is when these people are at their most dangerous and interestingly women are just as bad as men on this act. I seen a C63 Benz's power around me one day near Marrickville, only they didn't see the HWY Patrol car sitting in a side road watching traffic both ways...that kept the cop occupied for a while ...must've been 80kph in a 50 zone

brumby33

[mikesbytes]

Different views, I expected that. The comments about invisibility in the video appear to be a real threat to all forms of transport smaller than vehicle being driven by the motorist of concern. Human beings are programed to notice things that provide rewards or are of danger to themselves

And increasingly HATE inconveniences....eg: stuck behind a bicycle or even a bus.
It's interesting to watch actually, especially those who buy Mercs and Beemers in an Auction but that already have at least 250,000 K's on the clock but make them look wealthy and important. They get stuck momentarily behind my bus as I have to pick up a Passenger at a bus stop, so when they do get around me, they absolutely floor it as if there's no tomorrow just to make up time they lost....this is when these people are at their most dangerous and interestingly women are just as bad as men on this act. I seen a C63 Benz's power around me one day near Marrickville, only they didn't see the HWY Patrol car sitting in a side road watching traffic both ways...that kept the cop occupied for a while ...must've been 80kph in a 50 zone

brumby33

That merc driver sounds like the one I encountered yesterday in Tempe. I had to heave on the brakes to avoid hitting him as he barged his way in front of me. At the next light I pulled up beside him and he refused to wind down his window to discuss it

[brumby33]

Different views, I expected that. The comments about invisibility in the video appear to be a real threat to all forms of transport smaller than vehicle being driven by the motorist of concern. Human beings are programed to notice things that provide rewards or are of danger to themselves

And increasingly HATE inconveniences....eg: stuck behind a bicycle or even a bus.
It's interesting to watch actually, especially those who buy Mercs and Beemers in an Auction but that already have at least 250,000 K's on the clock but make them look wealthy and important. They get stuck momentarily behind my bus as I have to pick up a Passenger at a bus stop, so when they do get around me, they absolutely floor it as if there's no tomorrow just to make up time they lost....this is when these people are at their most dangerous and interestingly women are just as bad as men on this act. I seen a C63 Benz's power around me one day near Marrickville, only they didn't see the HWY Patrol car sitting in a side road watching traffic both ways...that kept the cop occupied for a while ...must've been 80kph in a 50 zone

brumby33

That merc driver sounds like the one I encountered yesterday in Tempe. I had to heave on the brakes to avoid hitting him as he barged his way in front of me. At the next light I pulled up beside him and he refused to wind down his window to discuss it

Yeah Mike, there's quite a few of them around the inner West and Sydney South.....heroes in their own mind when they inconvenience or make things dangerous while their in their tin cans but downright cowards when it's time to answer their cause

[fat and old]

When I got my bike licence it was "ride up the street. Turn right at a roundabout. Ride some more, stop at a stop sign. Ride some more. Turn right into a side street. Do a decent controlled stop from 30kmh. Good oh, here's your licence"

My training consisted of my housemates instructing me on the basics of changing gears and taking me down to the local park (so if I dropped it, it would be on grass) and me practicing slow turns. Which were not tested....

Yeah? I answered 31 questions correctly in Ltl Collins St, passed the eye test, paid 30 odd bucks and voila! Learners and good to go

[trailgumby]

Yeah Mike, there's quite a few of them around the inner West and Sydney South.....heroes in their own mind when they inconvenience or make things dangerous while their in their tin cans but downright cowards when it's time to answer their cause

That's why I run cameras.

[trailgumby]

I think the videographer makes some valid points. It's not a popular point of view. However, early data on crashes out of the Scandinavian countries seems to indicate significantly elevated crash risk and severity for e-bike operators, along the lines outlined in the video.

The data is what it is. Getting into denial doesn't change the underlying reality. The appropriate response is, instead, to ask what do we do about it, given the excellent opportunity they present to improve mobility and transport network efficiency, without sacrificing incidental exercise.

[trailgumby]

Can't really compare motorcycle fatalities to ebike fatalities unless you have some kind of exposure to compare. Hours ridden, number on the road, something like that.

... which he did, on the basis of per billion kilometres travelled. My thought is a rate per exposure hour would be more appropriate, given the lower average speeds and distances travelled by e-bike riders. I would expect that to make the e-bike stats less dire compared to motorcycles than presented in the video, but nevertheless, the risk remains significantly elevated compared to unassisted cycling.

[zebee]

When I got my bike licence it was "ride up the street. Turn right at a roundabout. Ride some more, stop at a stop sign. Ride some more. Turn right into a side street. Do a decent controlled stop from 30kmh. Good oh, here's your licence"

My training consisted of my housemates instructing me on the basics of changing gears and taking me down to the local park (so if I dropped it, it would be on grass) and me practicing slow turns. Which were not tested....

Yeah? I answered 31 questions correctly in Ltl Collins St, passed the eye test, paid 30 odd bucks and voila! Learners and good to go

No no, that wasn't the learners. That was the licence!

Yeah only 250cc but a year later I applied for and got a full unrestricted motorcycle licence. Fill in a form and there ya go.

[outnabike]

Thanks mikesbytes, Seems a different point of bike riding requires a different outlook at times.
I didn't read a bias into that video. The presenter did say that anomalies had to exist in the conclusions, as data was simply to young to verify and compare.

I get it that a new rider would get up to top speed and have a prang a lot quicker though. The training and expertise of riding a motorcycle in comparison was a major point as well. It took me a while when hopping on my bike to get a decent amount of road awareness after 50 years of not riding.
Not hard to imagine new folks just hopping on an electric bike and losing a bit of traffic awareness and realization they are mixing with 2 ton vehicles.

[Janice]

Very disappointing video. Fortnine has a good reputation for motorcycle videos but this one is a fail. How is he doing 60km/h on an ebike? Only down a steep hill. As far as I can tell, the motor cuts out at 32km/h in Canada. If he was doing 32km/h, the ebike is much safer than the motorbike unless he is on a high speed motorway.

[mikesbytes]

This Ebike is more dangerous
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/05/ ... d%20bikes.

[Gordonhooker]

This Ebike is more dangerous
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/05/ ... d%20bikes.

-
Now that is an ebike - where do I sign

[brumby33]

This Ebike is more dangerous
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/05/ ... d%20bikes.

Yeah see, the answer has been right in front of our faces all along...anti-car missiles for those bogans who want to do us harm....there might be a shortage of tradies for a while when their Hiluxes or Ranger Utes go ka-boom
We know now it can be done

[Jash Rider]

I just bought an e-bike to commute to work and back a few days each week. The beauty of living in Brisbane is we have a plethora of bike ways and shared paths to keep us off the road. I'm also old enough not to give a toss what people think of how I look so I'll be wearing long sleeve fluro tradie shirts and won't be using roads unless there's no alternative (which is rare).

I wouldn't ride on a road with busy traffic for quids. I used to, but never again.

[warthog1]

I just bought an e-bike to commute to work and back a few days each week. The beauty of living in Brisbane is we have a plethora of bike ways and shared paths to keep us off the road. I'm also old enough not to give a toss what people think of how I look so I'll be wearing long sleeve fluro tradie shirts and won't be using roads unless there's no alternative (which is rare).

I wouldn't ride on a road with busy traffic for quids. I used to, but never again.

In a city I don't blame you. The roads are always getting busier and people are impatient, inconsiderate and distracted. Too much time looking at electronic devices rather than the traffic around them.
I have thousands of road ks under my belt, mostly out of the city. I am spending less and less time on the bitumen though. Gravel is just so much safer and as a result more enjoyable for me.