Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

On Sunday a pedestrian walked into me on a shared path. My unglamorous nosedive into the concrete left me with a double fracture of my right shoulder and my ride finished at A&E after a trip in an ambulance.
Thing I didn't know was that because I crashed on a public path I was required to have a blood-alcohol test (which didn't worry me because I'm a non-drinker) so anyone thinking of having a skinful and riding home rather than driving might want to think again.

What was the purpose of the test? PCA legislation only applies to operators of motor vehicles, but there is a provision for taking a blood test if you are in an accident. I just don’t know what the purpose of it is if they can’t charge you under the same legislation.
Was the pedestrian who walked into you tested as well?

queequeg wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:46 am

Was the pedestrian who walked into you tested as well?

I would guess not. I was hit from behind at a stop sign on my motorcycle. I went to emergency to get checked over and they did the blood test for alcohol. As far as I know the person that hit me - after exchanging details - just continued to drive to their work. So therefore didn't have to get the test. It doesn't seem fair. But if you have to go to hospital after an accident, then that is the price I suppose.

queequeg wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:46 am

What was the purpose of the test? PCA legislation only applies to operators of motor vehicles, but there is a provision for taking a blood test if you are in an accident. I just don’t know what the purpose of it is if they can’t charge you under the same legislation.
Was the pedestrian who walked into you tested as well?

Nope. but then, he wasn't in control of a vehicle. although he did walk my bike to my wife and load it in the car for her.

queequeg wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:46 am

What was the purpose of the test? PCA legislation only applies to operators of motor vehicles, but there is a provision for taking a blood test if you are in an accident. I just don’t know what the purpose of it is if they can’t charge you under the same legislation.
Was the pedestrian who walked into you tested as well?

Hospitals required it. I got a copy of the results and another was apparently sent off to Police when It was forced on me too when I had a crash on my own many years ago.

Also had Westmead try it on years ago after a racing accident. I told them very firmly where to go and that it was in an officially sanctioned race in controlled conditions. That day I was I no mood for that BS. I think the staff there got the message loud and clear. Then I forced them to do their bit for the accident report (for CNSW as it was then) because I wasn’t going until they did.

In fact both times it was Westmead hospital.

Gorilla Too wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:52 am

On Sunday a pedestrian walked into me on a shared path. My unglamorous nosedive into the concrete left me with a double fracture of my right shoulder and my ride finished at A&E after a trip in an ambulance.
Thing I didn't know was that because I crashed on a public path I was required to have a blood-alcohol test (which didn't worry me because I'm a non-drinker) so anyone thinking of having a skinful and riding home rather than driving might want to think again.

Hope you recover okay, though it sounds like it will be lengthy. I hope you don’t get lectured (on here) for not giving way to pedestrians.

Ow that sounds nasty Gorilla Too, heal well.

In terms of post accident alcohol testing, in NSW its laid out in Schedule 3 of the Road Transport Act.

Key points

• Applies to hospitalised person who was a pedestrian, driver or rider of a vehicle - motor & unmotored
• Applies if the accident was on a road, which includes a shared path
• police can test driver or rider of a motor vehicle, regardless of whether hospitalised
• if a cyclist or pedestrian is not hospitalised, police can only test them if a person is killed or likely to die

While you refer to PCA, there is no Prescribed Concentration of Alcohol for a pedestrian or bicycle rider - it only applies to motor vehicles - details are in Part 5.1 of the Road Transport Act.

A cyclist can be charged with "riding under the influence" - s112. What does this mean? Those with long memories will recall the debate whether the PCA should be 0.05 or 0.08 - 0.05 is the point at which few people are impaired by alcohol, 0.08 is the point at which most, but not all people will be impaired. Any prosecution or court case will require evidence from a pharmacologist. Those that I have spoke to will generally require a blood alcohol of 0.10 before they will say a person is impaired by alcohol.

queequeg wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:46 am

I just don’t know what the purpose of it is if they can’t charge you under the same legislation.

Yeah they can charge you with riding under the influence.

Many years ago I had a workmate (who admittedly was a bit of a pisshead) who came off his bike in light rain when he lost traction on a corner with a little bit of oil on the road. He went to hospital with a broken collar bone, and despite no other vehicles or persons being involved they did the blood test and the police charged him with riding under the influence.

I've got no doubt that he was pissed, but he did end up beating the charges. In this case, as the only person involved, he made his own way home and got his wife to drive him to hospital. After being charged he made up the story that he went home and drank some whiskey to dull the pain, but when that didn't work he decided to go to hospital. It was bullcrap of course, but with no other witnesses they had no choice other than to drop the charges.

I always thought the hospital PCA test required the accident to involve at least one motor vehicle. Seems not. The legislation isn't exactly easy to decipher - does a pedestrian who is injured on a shared path in an accident with a bicycle have to legally submit to a PCA if they go to hospital? As others have commented the PCA legislation is for motor vehicles but I am pretty sure that a lawfully obtained PCA can be used as evidence in a DUI prosecution.

find_bruce wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:38 pm

Ow that sounds nasty Gorilla Too, heal well.

In terms of post accident alcohol testing, in NSW its laid out in Schedule 3 of the Road Transport Act.

Key points

• Applies to hospitalised person who was a pedestrian, driver or rider of a vehicle - motor & unmotored
• Applies if the accident was on a road, which includes a shared path
• police can test driver or rider of a motor vehicle, regardless of whether hospitalised
• if a cyclist or pedestrian is not hospitalised, police can only test them if a person is killed or likely to die

While you refer to PCA, there is no Prescribed Concentration of Alcohol for a pedestrian or bicycle rider - it only applies to motor vehicles - details are in Part 5.1 of the Road Transport Act.

A cyclist can be charged with "riding under the influence" - s112. What does this mean? Those with long memories will recall the debate whether the PCA should be 0.05 or 0.08 - 0.05 is the point at which few people are impaired by alcohol, 0.08 is the point at which most, but not all people will be impaired. Any prosecution or court case will require evidence from a pharmacologist. Those that I have spoke to will generally require a blood alcohol of 0.10 before they will say a person is impaired by alcohol.

Thanks for the clarification find_bruce.

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:26 pm

Gorilla Too wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:52 am

On Sunday a pedestrian walked into me on a shared path. My unglamorous nosedive into the concrete left me with a double fracture of my right shoulder and my ride finished at A&E after a trip in an ambulance.
Thing I didn't know was that because I crashed on a public path I was required to have a blood-alcohol test (which didn't worry me because I'm a non-drinker) so anyone thinking of having a skinful and riding home rather than driving might want to think again.

Hope you recover okay, though it sounds like it will be lengthy. I hope you don’t get lectured (on here) for not giving way to pedestrians.

Thanks for your thoughts G-B. No lecture so far and I was doing everything by the book: cut speed and rang bell to notify of overtake but couldn't stop the guy from turning into me and forcing me off.

Off the bike for at least six weeks.

Gorilla Too wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:35 am

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:26 pm

Gorilla Too wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:52 am

On Sunday a pedestrian walked into me on a shared path. My unglamorous nosedive into the concrete left me with a double fracture of my right shoulder and my ride finished at A&E after a trip in an ambulance.
Thing I didn't know was that because I crashed on a public path I was required to have a blood-alcohol test (which didn't worry me because I'm a non-drinker) so anyone thinking of having a skinful and riding home rather than driving might want to think again.

Hope you recover okay, though it sounds like it will be lengthy. I hope you don’t get lectured (on here) for not giving way to pedestrians.

Thanks for your thoughts G-B. No lecture so far and I was doing everything by the book: cut speed and rang bell to notify of overtake but couldn't stop the guy from turning into me and forcing me off.

Off the bike for at least six weeks.

It’s crazy at the moment riding on shared paths, everyone goes all over the place. Not your fault but you end up the victim.

tpcycle wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:25 pm

I always thought the hospital PCA test required the accident to involve at least one motor vehicle. Seems not. The legislation isn't exactly easy to decipher - does a pedestrian who is injured on a shared path in an accident with a bicycle have to legally submit to a PCA if they go to hospital? As others have commented the PCA legislation is for motor vehicles but I am pretty sure that a lawfully obtained PCA can be used as evidence in a DUI prosecution.

When I stacked my bike (all alone - front wheel washed out on a corner), a PCA test was done.

In a hospital setting I can fully understand the need for an alcohol test. Particularly among strangers who are looking for symptoms of other injuries. e.g. Slurred speech may be an indicator of brain injury, and may prompt a much more urgent response in a patient with no alcohol in their system. The presence of alcohol may interact with various medicines etc.

Presumably the testing carried out on passengers and pedestrians is for medical reasons rather than for the application of penalties.

Cheers,

Cameron

ironhanglider wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:44 am

In a hospital setting I can fully understand the need for an alcohol test. Particularly among strangers who are looking for symptoms of other injuries. e.g. Slurred speech may be an indicator of brain injury, and may prompt a much more urgent response in a patient with no alcohol in their system. The presence of alcohol may interact with various medicines etc.

Presumably the testing carried out on passengers and pedestrians is for medical reasons rather than for the application of penalties.

Cheers,

Cameron

The hospital setting is sometimes only because the local doctor/medical center was closed on the particular day (they don't do that test). Which makes the test a bit of a ticking the boxes exercise, especially when you are totally alert and all you want is to get the wounds cleaned up and patched up and be on the way.

What next, do we apply some riding furiously penalties after any accident?

ironhanglider wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:44 am

In a hospital setting I can fully understand the need for an alcohol test. Particularly among strangers who are looking for symptoms of other injuries. e.g. Slurred speech may be an indicator of brain injury, and may prompt a much more urgent response in a patient with no alcohol in their system. The presence of alcohol may interact with various medicines etc.

Presumably the testing carried out on passengers and pedestrians is for medical reasons rather than for the application of penalties.

Cheers,

Cameron

In actual fact that is not how hospital PCA tests work. When you take the test, you do not find out the result, so it is of no help at the time of treatment. It is sealed up and sent to the government laboratory for testing. The patient also gets a sealed sample, in case they want to get it tested privately to dispute the result. If you want to know the blood alcohol, you have to do a separate test.

As the treating doctor in casualty, there are potentially big consequences if you do not take one these, so the tendency is to take one if in doubt, even it not clearly in the rules

So in summary the testing is done to comply with the law, not for medical reasons at all.

robbo mcs wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:36 pm

ironhanglider wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:44 am

In a hospital setting I can fully understand the need for an alcohol test. Particularly among strangers who are looking for symptoms of other injuries. e.g. Slurred speech may be an indicator of brain injury, and may prompt a much more urgent response in a patient with no alcohol in their system. The presence of alcohol may interact with various medicines etc.

Presumably the testing carried out on passengers and pedestrians is for medical reasons rather than for the application of penalties.

Cheers,

Cameron

In actual fact that is not how hospital PCA tests work. When you take the test, you do not find out the result, so it is of no help at the time of treatment. It is sealed up and sent to the government laboratory for testing. The patient also gets a sealed sample, in case they want to get it tested privately to dispute the result. If you want to know the blood alcohol, you have to do a separate test.

As the treating doctor in casualty, there are potentially big consequences if you do not take one these, so the tendency is to take one if in doubt, even it not clearly in the rules

So in summary the testing is done to comply with the law, not for medical reasons at all.

Yes that is also my experience over the 37 years that I previously worked in healthcare, including a few years in emergency departments.
But I have never seen blood alcohol testing done on a bicycle rider in the emergency department of a Queensland hospital.
Only ever on the drivers of motor vehicles.
So the law might vary according to which state, and also different hospitals even in the same city can have different protocols procedures and policies.

And of course policies can change over time, the last time that I was in emergency department with an injured cyclist was several yrs ago, and in that case I was there as the support person, not as a worker.
(He arrived there by ambulance after overshooting a corner and fortunately was able to walk out, covered in bandages after thorough and appropriate care at the major hospital)