Why do too many e-bike riders demand speed?

[Brendan H]

Probably because thy dont know what the speed limits actually are.
You can do over 25kph power assisted if your motor is not over 200w output and not an EPAC Except in QLD. ( due to Hire Moped type of things that were being ridden throttle only on footpaths at speed in the Gold coast. I have seen this myself and Its not good)
The Australian Design Rules were recently amended with regard to ebikes.
The ADR legislators had the opportunity to limit 200w Speeds in the Definitions and chose not to.
They would have been aware of the Situation in QLD regards the 200w speed limits there.
They chose to let the states legislate speed limits around the ADR definitions if the States feel it necessary.

Now if people can behave themselves on their 200w PAPC ebikes then 25kph +is legal except QLD( Im only aware NSW and QLD legislation as Im in Far North NSW so need to know both)
I think the ADR legislation definitions are fair and am happy NSW chooses to use the Definitions without alteration.

[mfunnell]

If you are out with someone who can't keep up with you then you have a choice: ride with them or don't.

This makes sense to me.

On Easter Monday just past, I went riding with a friend who hasn't ridden much at all, around Bicentennial Park in Sydney (a great ride, just BTW). She and I rode together, which meant that I was often slowing down for her (while riding an e-bike with power assist set to zero - just to keep the lights on for visibility, else I'd just plain have turned it off). I had a far better time of it riding with her than if I'd pushed things along - as I could have, still, without turning assistance on (but only because I've been riding so much, which wouldn't have happened if I'd not started with assistance in the 1st place).

Good company is important! More important than bike metrics, or "going fast", IMO.

When riding by myself, though, I will push things along: mostly because much of my riding really is for utility purposes. I'm riding to the shops because I have stuff I need to buy. I'm going to the coffee house because I want to meet with friends, etc. No point dawdling. Yes, it's true, I like riding a bike: but that's something I only discovered after doing it (40 years after I'd stopped). I originally bought my e-bike for entirely utilitarian purposes. Purposes for which it suits me just fine. Discovering I actually liked riding it only came afterwards (and after I became bike-fit enough to not need the power-assistance quite so much).

My view of the 25km/h limit on electrical assistance is that I'm (personally, YMMV) quite happy with it. On longer and relatively flat rides I regularly exceed 30km/h for long stretches - which is OK. The assistance gets me up to speed faster: and if I then go faster still, without assistance, then that's just fine too (and, hey, it saves on battery usage). If I drop back into the assistance range because of uphill stretches or headwinds or whatever, then, to me, that's what the assistance is for.

Not to make me go faster, as such, but to make the ride along the way less of a mess when I hit not-ideal conditions. I know others might be in different circumstances and have different requirements, but this works for me. (Note: I'm also able to afford an e-bike which isn't more than 3 kilograms heavier than a more-or-less equivalent un-assisted bike, which really does make a difference after the assistance cuts out. Others might not be so fortunate.)

...Mike

[zebee]

I have e-assist on the trike. I usually have it off unless using it for its main purpose which is heavy haulage. Even with it on I am not doing 25kmh on the flat with a trailer and week's shopping... I do enjoy riding it but it's a heavy sod and I am not doing 25kmh most days... Not even with assist.

The two wheeler is not assisted and floats to 25+ with ease. If I want speed that's what I ride.

I don't mind the speed limit but I would like more watts. I'd love a 750W motor with a 25kmh limit that was built to take a heavy trike and a heavy rider and a loaded trailer up a hill. Even if that wasn't at 25.

[fat and old]

Remember, anyone with a valid drivers license can ride a scooter. Then you can do 50kph.

Not without a motorcycle licence in NSW, VIC, ACT or TAS. Not that anyone asked, but as a motorcycle rider, I don't believe that using any (petrol engine, motorcycle type) scooter with just a driver's licence is a good idea.
https://www.scootering.com.au/can-you-r ... r-license/

I didn't know that. It makes sense now of some of the things I've seen. Personally, as a M/C rider I've always believed that using a M/C for 6 months before you can obtain a car license should be mandatory. As a cyclist, I lower that bar to 6 months bicycle use, then 6 months M/C use, then car, then SUV, then 4wd, then trucks. Of course, I'm probably a cohort of 1

Oh, on the OP. (Some....most?) E-cycle users demand speed/power because they use the things for transport. The whole idea of transport is to get the job done. Not to get fit, or look at the roses or enjoy the smells.

[Janice]

NSW won't be changing the law anytime soon.

Thank you for your correspondence to the Minister for Transport and Roads about 'pedelec'
electric bicycles. As you may appreciate, the Minister receives thousands of items of
correspondence each year. Transport for NSW is therefore responding to you directly.
I note your comments and appreciate your interest in increasing the maximum speed at
which motor assistance is provided. However, there are no plans to increase the maximum
speed at this time.
Pedelecs with power assistance that cuts off at 25km/h are exempt from NSW registration
and licensing requirements and the Australian Design Rules. Those that have power
assistance at higher speeds - known as 'mopeds' - are not exempt. The requirement for
pedelecs to cease providing power assistance at 25km/h is applied across Australia.
Riders travelling at 32km/h rather than 25km/h are at much greater risk of crash and injury.
They also pose a greater risk to those using shared paths, especially the elderly and
vulnerable.
The increased risks associated with mopeds are mitigated by stricter vehicle
standards, registration, rider licensing, and the requirement for the rider to wear a
motorcycle helmet. More information is available from the Transport for NSW website
(www.transport.nsw.gov.au).
Thank you for taking the time to write.
Yours sincerely
09/04/2021
Terry McSweeney
Principal Manager
Ministerial Correspondence

[Comedian]

NSW won't be changing the law anytime soon.

Thank you for your correspondence to the Minister for Transport and Roads about 'pedelec'
electric bicycles. As you may appreciate, the Minister receives thousands of items of
correspondence each year. Transport for NSW is therefore responding to you directly.
I note your comments and appreciate your interest in increasing the maximum speed at
which motor assistance is provided. However, there are no plans to increase the maximum
speed at this time.
Pedelecs with power assistance that cuts off at 25km/h are exempt from NSW registration
and licensing requirements and the Australian Design Rules. Those that have power
assistance at higher speeds - known as 'mopeds' - are not exempt. The requirement for
pedelecs to cease providing power assistance at 25km/h is applied across Australia.
Riders travelling at 32km/h rather than 25km/h are at much greater risk of crash and injury.
They also pose a greater risk to those using shared paths, especially the elderly and
vulnerable.
The increased risks associated with mopeds are mitigated by stricter vehicle
standards, registration, rider licensing, and the requirement for the rider to wear a
motorcycle helmet. More information is available from the Transport for NSW website
(www.transport.nsw.gov.au).
Thank you for taking the time to write.
Yours sincerely
09/04/2021
Terry McSweeney
Principal Manager
Ministerial Correspondence

It's really not Terry's problem. He's got a car.

[AUbicycles]

However, I would approach this request to the government differently and request a new category.

Mopeds are not specificaly pedal-assist whereas S-Pedelecs can be. With registration and licensing it opens up the regulation which means tgat not only can this be viable / useful, but has enough controls so that these S-Pedelecs don’t immediately pose a new safety problem.

By addressing a new category, not only does it better align with laws overseas (as examples that work) but this also takes away other hurdles that were addressed as hurdles (eg shared paths and increased risks).

The unique Australian / NZ standards create enough difficulty so when it comes to brands of bikes / motors / controllers developing a specifically that would only be used by one Australian state or Territory or even just using in the one nation, the supply may not come... or be extremely patchy for a while.

A solution is there with the S-pedelec.

[Comedian]

However, I would approach this request to the government differently and request a new category.

Mopeds are not specificaly pedal-assist whereas S-Pedelecs can be. With registration and licensing it opens up the regulation which means tgat not only can this be viable / useful, but has enough controls so that these S-Pedelecs don’t immediately pose a new safety problem.

By addressing a new category, not only does it better align with laws overseas (as examples that work) but this also takes away other hurdles that were addressed as hurdles (eg shared paths and increased risks).

The unique Australian / NZ standards create enough difficulty so when it comes to brands of bikes / motors / controllers developing a specifically that would only be used by one Australian state or Territory or even just using in the one nation, the supply may not come... or be extremely patchy for a while.

A solution is there with the S-pedelec.

I disagree. What we are seeing in QLD is that if people want to go fast they get a scooter. Electric bikes are just too expensive on a dollar to speed ratio. For $2500 you can be doing 50+KPH with a couple of clicks and a few minutes changing a value in the scooter menu. Plus electric scooters can be folded and put on a train, or under a desk there is probably an aspect of laziness too.. but IMHO (as I've said elsewhere) I think electric bikes are going to wither into a more nice product.

Perhaps s-pedalecs might have an application for ultra long distance commuting where facilities permit.

[AUbicycles]

Interesting ideas - but I would like to separate the electric scooters completely. I think micromobility is important but you can also separate them broadly by seeing bikes as transportation that can use roads while scooters are generally for footpaths and share-scooters generally have a 15kmh limit.

That some have the capacity to go pretty fast needs regulation and it is all a grey zone and when it becomes a bigger problem, it will be cracked down upon.

The big picture is that there are different vehicles, many with overlaps in usage and pros and cons. Connecting a bike or scooter to train travel is good and I think different locations and circumstances will suits certain modes of travel or combinations.

ebikes won't go away. I did 78km on an ebike on the weekend with roads and terrain that a scooter couldn't handle. And more than half of the other riders were on ebikes... even families where parents and 3 kids all have ebikes.

To slightly counter my own recommendation above - I think the S-Pedelec sector will remain small (i.e. licences and registered for legal road use) and regular 250W and 25kmh limited ebikes are sufficient for most commuters and recreational riders and will dominate.

There is a second market of not-road-legal sports two-wheels. i.e. e-motorbikes or almost-motorbikes for the mountainbike audience. But for S-Pedelecs, for road users that want this speed, the step-over to electric mopeds (throttle only) is not far away so if speed is needed, these can be more convenient.

All good topics to debate though trying to adjust the 250W and 25kmh category of ebikes and expand this existing category is really just in the interest of a small group of riders so lobbying for a new category (like s-pedelec) would be smarter and with a greater prospect of success.

[Comedian]

Interesting ideas - but I would like to separate the electric scooters completely. I think micromobility is important but you can also separate them broadly by seeing bikes as transportation that can use roads while scooters are generally for footpaths and share-scooters generally have a 15kmh limit.

That some have the capacity to go pretty fast needs regulation and it is all a grey zone and when it becomes a bigger problem, it will be cracked down upon.

The big picture is that there are different vehicles, many with overlaps in usage and pros and cons. Connecting a bike or scooter to train travel is good and I think different locations and circumstances will suits certain modes of travel or combinations.

ebikes won't go away. I did 78km on an ebike on the weekend with roads and terrain that a scooter couldn't handle. And more than half of the other riders were on ebikes... even families where parents and 3 kids all have ebikes.

To slightly counter my own recommendation above - I think the S-Pedelec sector will remain small (i.e. licences and registered for legal road use) and regular 250W and 25kmh limited ebikes are sufficient for most commuters and recreational riders and will dominate.

There is a second market of not-road-legal sports two-wheels. i.e. e-motorbikes or almost-motorbikes for the mountainbike audience. But for S-Pedelecs, for road users that want this speed, the step-over to electric mopeds (throttle only) is not far away so if speed is needed, these can be more convenient.

All good topics to debate though trying to adjust the 250W and 25kmh category of ebikes and expand this existing category is really just in the interest of a small group of riders so lobbying for a new category (like s-pedelec) would be smarter and with a greater prospect of success.

To be clear.. I don't think e-bikes will go away either. I think they will continue go grow into the "sport" markets of electric MTB and gravel bikes etc. Huge growth here. It's just a few years ago electric bikes were going to be the big thing that changed everything and particularly city commuting because they enabled people to get around without getting sweaty.

The commuting market is where I think we are going to see e-bikes loosing out big time to scooters. Because as I keep stating - they are cheaper, smaller, and people are lazy. Now they don't have to exercise at all! No need to wear any special clothing. Do your makeup at home!.

A lady at work lives maybe 4k from the CBD. She just bought a little segway for like $800. Try rolling into a electric bike shop and see if you can get anything decent for less than 3k or more. The only maintenance is tyres and brake pads. No looking after the drivetrain. Anyway she's stoked. She just gets dressed at home and whizzes into work.

I think e-bikes will still exist in the commuting space but I see them withering in this market. What you see now is probably their zenith.

[Mr Purple]

The thread title amuses me. It is not e-bike riders that want to go fast; it is humans in general!

I actually passed five e-bikes in a row on the veloway last week. Was impressed that they all seemed to still possess their 25km/hr limiters.

Does anyone else find it amusing that the cycling community is currently split into two technological factions? Those of us on e-bikes who want travel with less exercise, and those of us on indoor trainers who want exercise with less travel. All we need is a way of transferring the extra power from the latter to the former.

[AUbicycles]

Its not that... it is easier mobility... not lazy mobility. And for indoor trainers it is convenience, late at night when the kids are in bed, heading out for a ride has bigger hurdles than going for an indoor spin.

Chipped and illegally tuned ebikes would remain a minority... Australia never really had the trend with the youth of illegally tuned mopeds and the electric scooters would be easier, cheaper and more attractive than ebikes for those groups.

[Comedian]

Its not that... it is easier mobility... not lazy mobility. And for indoor trainers it is convenience, late at night when the kids are in bed, heading out for a ride has bigger hurdles than going for an indoor spin.

Chipped and illegally tuned ebikes would remain a minority... Australia never really had the trend with the youth of illegally tuned mopeds and the electric scooters would be easier, cheaper and more attractive than ebikes for those groups..

So, that part in red really stopped me in my tracks. I really can't say how many bikes and scooters are de-restricted. It's the sort of thing that it's not always easy to tell.

Maybe it's different in Sydney - I've no idea. But I strongly disagree that derestricted scooters and e-bikes are a "minority" in QLD.

It's impossible to say what the percentage is but it's at the point where if I see a legal e-bike or scooter I'm like "wow there is a legal one. You don't see that much". If I had to take a punt at the number of privately owned e-bikes and scooters used on our paths for commuting I would say it's greater than 50%.

Note that I didn't imply the numbers for all e-things because I suspect "chipping" isn't nearly as prevalent in the e-mtb scene.

[Mr Purple]

Its not that... it is easier mobility... not lazy mobility. And for indoor trainers it is convenience, late at night when the kids are in bed, heading out for a ride has bigger hurdles than going for an indoor spin.

I didn't imply it was lazy, I understand it entirely. Especially if you want to show up at work without reeking too much. And that's exactly why I use an indoor trainer - because small child.

[AUbicycles]

If my poor spelling stopped you in your tracks... sorry. On a mobile, the wrong letters come up all the time.

[Janice]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-25/ ... /100318382

Australia's peak industry group, Bicycle Industries Australia (BIA), is now lobbying federal and state governments to review the regulations.

It believes lifting the 25 kph maximum assisted speed — the lowest in the world — would ultimately increase safety for cyclists and pedestrians.

Mr Schelfhout believes the current regulations are pushing cyclists, and some bicycle shops, to ignore the law.

Peter Bourke said BIA was talking with federal and state governments about reviewing the current regulations and recommended increasing the maximum assisted speed to about 32 kph.

He believed raising the speed capacity would reduce the number of people modifying their bikes and better align Australia with the rest of the world.

[Comedian]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-25/ ... /100318382

Australia's peak industry group, Bicycle Industries Australia (BIA), is now lobbying federal and state governments to review the regulations.

It believes lifting the 25 kph maximum assisted speed — the lowest in the world — would ultimately increase safety for cyclists and pedestrians.

Mr Schelfhout believes the current regulations are pushing cyclists, and some bicycle shops, to ignore the law.

Peter Bourke said BIA was talking with federal and state governments about reviewing the current regulations and recommended increasing the maximum assisted speed to about 32 kph.

He believed raising the speed capacity would reduce the number of people modifying their bikes and better align Australia with the rest of the world.

FWIW I also think raising the speed limit to 20MPH would be more in keeping with our cycling environment in Australia. However it would really need to be backed up by enforcement of these limits which I've certainly never ever seen in QLD. So it's really just a moot point.

Unfortunately It doesn't address the issue of scooter speed, which as I've discussed elsewhere seems to be the way things are going - at least in QLD. Scooters are now the clear choice if you want something fast.

A cynic in me might think that the bicycle industry is concerned that a growing portion of their sales are going to scooters. They should be too. IMHO long term scooters will dominate the commuter market with electric bikes increasingly being a sports cycling thing (IE electric MTB). No one saw this coming and I can't see them holding the tide back.

[Thoglette]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-25/ ... /100318382

It believes lifting the 25 kph maximum assisted speed — the lowest in the world — would ultimately increase safety for cyclists and pedestrians.

And Donald believes he won the election in a landslide.

The reasons for 25 have been outlined multiple times and nothings changed.

The Subtext: we think we’d shift more stock if they were faster.

[Mububban]

My short commute (8km, 80m elevation) on current test ebike vs road bike:

23 minutes by ebike on footpaths, waiting for crossing lights, sitting bolt upright, wearing my work clothes, arriving home not huffing and puffing and totally sweaty but still got some sunshine and fresh air and light exercise.
Average speed 21.4kmh, max 37.1kmh.

16 minutes by road bike on the road, going with the flow of traffic, wearing lycra, trying to go fast, arrive home sweaty and need a shower and with elevated heart rate.
Average speed 29.9kmh, max 53.3kmh.

I’m not being falsely modest to say I’m skinny, weak and slow compared to most “serious” riders. And even my low power output flogs the ebike time.

Totally different mindsets apply for both bikes. I have to tell myself to chill out on the ebike and “smell the roses,” enjoy the slower pace and not rush.
On the road bike I might try and beat a PR on Strava and hit some short climbs on the way home too.

Personally I’d vote for a 30kmh limit. I’m pretty sure all modern bikes also have adjustable power levels, so if you’re not confident, or getting on in years, you can still get a helpful boost but not use the “turbo” mode and risk losing control.

[The Fixer]

I am almost 64, and have been riding bicycles since the age of four. I have also ridden motorcycles since before I was old enough for a licence. I currently drive a car (and sometimes the odd small truck), and ride both my 'normal' retro road-bicycles and an e-bike, and am considering regaining my motorcycle licence after a lapse of several years.

Yes, I have adjusted the settings on my e-bike (it's a 'legal' 250w e-MTB, not a 'frankenbike' with a huge motor, dodgy frame and no brakes) to do a maximum of 30-35km/h - BUT I very seldom actually USE that extra speed. I do NOT use it on cycle paths or mixed cycle/walking paths at any time. My machine has 5 power settings, and for most general riding I use position 3. I use 2 and sometimes even 1 on shared paths (depending on how busy they are), and 4 on hills. HOWEVER - if I am in reasonably heavy or fast-moving traffic, I use position 5, which gives me access to that extra few km/h. This reduces the speed difference between me and the surrounding traffic and improves my safety.

I know exactly what I'm doing, am not an 'old bloke without the skills or reflexes to handle it' and am certainly not a young smartarse to whom speed is everything. My e-bike is well-equipped to handle the extra 5-10km/h without issues - the brakes, lighting, tyres etc are more than adequate for the task, as I am more than qualified/experienced enough to judge. I made an informed decision as an experienced cyclist and motorcyclist to tweak the speed as a safety measure, and am perfectly happy and comfortable with my decision and see no reason why I shouldn't be.

If others disagree, or don't like it for whatever reason (and no doubt some will), I'd venture to suggest that it's their problem, not mine, and I certainly won't appreciate being abused or denigrated for my decision (again, as no doubt some will).

[rkelsen]

^ That may be all well and good... but it's illegal in every state of Australia, unless you register it as a motorbike.

The chance of being found out is likely minimal, but posting it on a public forum probably wasn't ideal.

[commute]

Probably because thy dont know what the speed limits actually are.
You can do over 25kph power assisted if your motor is not over 200w output and not an EPAC Except in QLD. ..

Are there any e-bikes with 200w motors for sale retail?

I had a brief look on bike exchange and even the road e-bikes all seemed to have 250w motors which cut out at 25km/h.

[Mububban]

Probably because thy dont know what the speed limits actually are.
You can do over 25kph power assisted if your motor is not over 200w output and not an EPAC Except in QLD. ..

Are there any e-bikes with 200w motors for sale retail?

I had a brief look on bike exchange and even the road e-bikes all seemed to have 250w motors which cut out at 25km/h.

I could be wrong, but I think only throttle controlled motors were ever 200W? My old (now illegal) throttle controlled motor was 200W. It gave a nice boost but could not haul my 68kg up anything resembling an incline without me also putting in solid effort.
I think all pedelecs are 250W.

Yes, I have adjusted the settings on my e-bike to do a maximum of 30-35km/h.....

.....I made an informed decision as an experienced cyclist and motorcyclist to tweak the speed as a safety measure, and am perfectly happy and comfortable with my decision and see no reason why I shouldn't be.

If others disagree, or don't like it for whatever reason (and no doubt some will), I'd venture to suggest that it's their problem, not mine, and I certainly won't appreciate being abused or denigrated for my decision (again, as no doubt some will).[/i][/b]

Have at it boss, but you've just admitted to doing something illegal on a public forum. I hope you never are involved in a crash (which could happen to any of us at any time) because you're more likely to go to jail for hurting someone with a modded ebike than a car driver is for killing a cyclist (see the latest story in other section of the forum).

[The Fixer]

If it comes to a choice between my safety and some poorly-thought-out law introduced by an avowed
anti-cyclist transport minister, I'm going to choose on the side of safety every time.

[outnabike]

No one is going to stop any one doing what they want. Law or no Law. You know, I still recall the justification by some cyclist that they wouldn't install a bell.
Oh it was the in thing to suggest the bell was fitted to the front hub I think. Or under the seat. Ho Ho.. I don't recall any one denigrating that rider as a law breaker.
And calling out passing right or left is the go it seems coss you aint got a bell what can be reached. The law is to use a bell. In Vic there are signs all over to use a bell near peds. Great fun it was to go on about it.

So lawlessness (or not), I find is in the eye of the folks that want to justify a point of view. Rider or critic. And really we are all critics.

I am guilty in Vic of riding on a path against the law, to avoid a turn at a certain RH Tee intersection. I have seen cars get hit in the arse there doing a RH turn on busy days. A bike might be a sitting duck. Just my little bit of justification.

I don't see the Hot bikes with the radial wheel reflectors either they are missing on brand new bikes... Their removal will have excellent justification.

The other day a few pursued a fellow member over his electric bike and its settings in Brisbane. No matter what he said that it was ok to the law, it was not believed.
I reckon lots of things ought to be left to the law and the rider. In reality the only thing is safety and for fools to not go too quick around peds that wander like sheep. In the long run all I see is the cops turning a blind eye to slow riders and nabbing quickies if they feel the mood. I see articles tut tutting even 50 klm limits by standard bikes these days.
Any way take it easy and cut each other a break... in the end we can all get a giggle when the real problem boys get booked. I know I might ....