Why do too many e-bike riders demand speed?

[AUbicycles]

Australia has a fairly strong leisure and sporting culture and the idea of 'being the best' or 'doing the best' perhaps translate into grumbling about the 25kmh limits on ebikes.

In essence, a number of people would like faster speeds and this is a topic that I personal feel is a concern.

There is an obvious technical capability that the ebikes can provide more torque and more power. And it is fairly asked... so why not use it? While the non road legal ebikes are (thankfully) not as widely established in Australia - the regular ebike market continues to grow.

With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility


01
Ebikes don't need a license or registration... and also should not require these. This means they are a transport solution that is accessible and flexible... and the governments should be smart enough to foster ebikes because they are cleaner, more efficient, take less space and are better for health. So ebikes are a smart mobility option that provide more range or accessibility than a regular bike.

Ebikes should be considered an extension of the regular bicycle and for every transportation, the goal of travel is not 'max speeds' rather is about convenience and access. Increasing the power of ebikes shifts them into a higher power motorised vehicle that opens Pandoras Box with the questions of licensing and registration as well as suitability for bicycle infrastructure.


02
An argument sometimes offered is that regular bikes can easily exceed 25kmh. Yes... this is with pedal power and typically the rider has also established experience riding (usually as a child) and develops and understanding of the road rules and develops their own abilities and control. It is usually a gradual process so fast bike riders tend to have experience and developed their fitness and bike handling.

It means that the body becomes a natural mechanism that impacts the speed. When power is suddenly available then this can introduce problems as the accident statistic of senior riders has shown. The popularity of ebikes has seen an increase in the number of seniors who can now rely on ebikes for mobility. This is a positive development however there is also an increase in the number of seniors who crash their ebikes, loosing control because of the higher speed / power. One a bicycle, the rider has higher risk of injury particularly as the speeds increase.


03
Speed Pedelecs is an existing category in some European countries that allow options and solutions. Registration of the bicycles limited to 45km help encourage standard compliance and safety for these vehicles that are capable of higher assisted speeds. Licensing of the riders ensures they have the capabilities to handle these faster ebikes. The helmet they are required to wear needs to comply with other safety standard because of the higher speeds.

The problem in Australia is politics which affected by a number issues:
- Slow
- Knee-jerk reactions in their laws
- State based differences
- Poor infrastructure and poor record for cycling safety
- Priority given to lobby interests and motor vehicles


04
If there are new Australian specific laws that are not aligned with other major nations, this introduces exactly the same problems that Australia already faces with helmets that have a standard unique to Australia/NZ. For brands it means that they have extra costs in getting standards certified, these helmets may also require different manufacturing to create individual products just for the Australian market. This increases the prices and some brands 'don't bother'.

If there were different regulations for e-bikes this would immediately impact the availability... many brands would simply supply ebike that comply with the well-adopted European standards... even if this offers less power than is possible.


05
If speed and power is important, and you don't have the physical condition and/or the infrastructure to achieve the speeds you want on a bicycle or an ebikes - then a bicycle may simple not be then best mode of transport and a scooter or motorcycle or a car is more suited. Each of these has pros and cons... so the advantages that a bicycle offers is not entirely available with a car (e.g. cost, congestion, parking).


In Summary

E-bikes are still a fantastic mobility solution and even with the frustration of "I wish they would go faster"... in actual fact the standards are well suited and for the overwhelming majority of riders of legal ebikes, the speed is appropriate.

[RonK]

You make serious generalisations about who is riding e-bikes. While no doubt many seniors do use them as an aid to mobility is quite incorrect to assume that they all lack cycling skills or experience. And I doubt that those who are newcomers to the bicycle as transport are the ones agitating for more speed.
I have been a member of this forum for many years and consider myself an experienced and responsible cyclist. I took to an e-bike because advancing osteoarthritis was reducing my enjoyment of cycling, and I’m pretty sure there are many others who have very similar reasons for switching to an e-bike.
Yes, I want my e-bike to go faster, and the reason is simple - the group of friends I ride with typically ride at 28-30 kph. After 10 or 15 km of pushing my 22kg e-bike up to this pace I’m totally exhausted and often end up completing the ride alone.
Over many years of cycling my experience is that reasonable fit amateur cyclists (i.e.the groups that I have ridden with for the past 30 years) typically ride at a pace of around 28-30kph. It makes perfectly good sense to set the assistance cut-off point to 30 kph.

[AUbicycles]

I am okay that this is a provocative thread although this doesn’t define a limited audience as an ebike rider. The rise in accidents among seniors is an example if how the capabilities can be too much, but the same would be true of low powered and high powered cars in the hands of certain people.

Commuting and leisure riding are the big growth areas and ebikes are a big plus as they extend range and access but the ebike demographics goes (positively) well beyond this,

[RonK]

So where are the statistics that show Australian seniors are taking to e-bikes en masse and being injured as a result?
No use transposing the Dutch experience on Australia - we have seen time and time again that Australia and the Netherlands are very different countries with very different cycling infrastructure and very different cycling cultures so direct comparisons are irrelevant.

[Comedian]

I think it's a complex thing. I've spoken at length about how commonplace is is for e-bikes to be "chipped" or have the limiters removed. I realise this might be more of a Queensland thing - but it's also common for electric scooters to be "de-limited" and there are more of them that are heavier and faster in general than delimited e-bikes. In Queensland - I believe the speed e-bike crowd are transitioning to speed scooters because they are faster, cheaper, and you don't even have to pretend to pedal.

I think I can come up with a few dot points on why I think this is happening.

1. Our speed limit for electric devices is very low. 25kph is fast for europe, but due to our cycling conditions here that's on the low end for many cycling environments here - and particularly urban commuting. IMHO there would be far more compliance if the limit was somewhat higher like the US 20mph (32k) standard.
2. Unlike Europe our cycling paths aren't direct. In general the longest way between two points is by bike path. So someone like myself who lives 7k from the Brisbane CBD might have a short route (!!??) of 12k and a longer route of 14k. At these distances an e-bike or scooter limited to 25k adds a significant amount of time a day to an unlimited one. I'd argue that longer commutes aren't really feasible for most people on limited devices.
3. Again unlike Europe our cycling paths are often disconnected, and with gaps that have to be covered by mixing with motor traffic. Our roads in cities often carry much higher speed limits (typically 50 or 60kph) and an e-bike limited to 25 can really make you feel like a sitting duck.
4. From what I see - I believe that for many people the choice to use a "hotted up" e-bike or scooter over a moped or normal motor bike is largely one of safety. Yes there are cost and licensing barriers to mopeds and motor bikes - it only takes a cursory look at the price of high speed scooters and bikes to see that this is not the main issue. The perception (and probably reality) of motor bike riders as "temporary Australians" is why people would rather use bike paths than mix it on the roads with cars.
5. Again - from my experience in QLD there is very close to zero enforcement of power and speed limits for these classes of vehicle. I personally have never heard of a solitary case of a rider being booked for a delimited bike/scooter. It would appear that the only real issue might be in the event of a crash, but even then I've not heard of issues. After the accident the police just don't want to know. So, in the absence of penalties why not? It constantly amazes me that people are spending several thousand on scooters in the belief that they can use them unlimited without issue.

[bychosis]

It’s an interesting problem. On one hand we want/need fast efficient transport due to distances, speed limits and climate. On the other we want motorised transport to be registered for safety and unregistered transport to attain a max speed suited for share paths and footpaths.

Share paths typically haven’t been designed for fast travel because bicycles don’t travel ‘fast’. If you want to ride exclusively on the roads you’d typically want higher speeds.

I have no answers - haven’t fully formed opinions yet.

[Bentnose]

I commuted to my current workplace for the first time, twice this week. I did this because I got stuck in bad traffic for nearly 2 hours on Tuesday on what should be a 20 to 30 minute drive along what is almost an all freeway route of about 24 KM. I start at 7AM so need to leave at 5:30AM so I have enough time to change and shower before starting work. The bike route in is shorter than the car as it is, unusually, more direct at 21.5KM, with stops for lights it was 1 hour about 23.5KM AVS to work and 24.5KM home AVS. The problem I had was that by the time I got to work I was knackered, riding relatively hard at 5:30AM just killed me and I have a physical job so by the end of the day I was shattered and then had to ride home.

I had a bloke pass me on what I'm assuming was an Ebike (or he was an Olympic athlete in disguise) on the way home yesterday, I was doing about 25KMH into a headwind and he was peddling what looked like a city bike, at about 50KMH or more, I'd love to have done that. A 25KMH max speed would be useless to me as it means it would probably take me even longer to get to work, though I wouldn't be so tired when I arrived. To average a similar speed to what I'm managing now, but with less effort, a 32KMH limit would work well and I'd consider commuting on one; it would be going no faster than I'm going now so I don't see the risk, though I did top 60KMH on one road section and nearly hit a car when it U turned in front of me, can't help idiots.

[Bentnose]

Also keep in mind regarding modifications to make your Ebike faster, there's no law against making your car into a faster weapon.

[Thoglette]

The point of 25kph is not to keep up with the peloton but to limit them to a pace that is safe for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of locations.
Do you think that because I had a car racing licence I should be permitted an extra 20kph of speed limit?
Or be grounds for everyone to travel 20kph faster?

[bychosis]

Also keep in mind regarding modifications to make your Ebike faster, there's no law against making your car into a faster weapon.

This is true, but there’s a bunch of rules for road users about what speeds they can travel.you can drive the same roads in a 1970 Beetle as a Lamborghini.

I suppose we could employ speed limits for paths, but there isn’t enough enforcement on roads and without rego plates how are the whiners going to catch speeding cyclists.

[Bentnose]

The point of 25kph is not to keep up with the peloton but to limit them to a pace that is safe for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of locations.
Do you think that because I had a car racing licence I should be permitted an extra 20kph of speed limit?
Or be grounds for everyone to travel 20kph faster?

I think a common complaint is why they can't be just 7kmh faster, this would make them move at the same speed as the average cyclist, which doesn't seem to ve asking much.

[skyblot]

I think a common complaint is why they can't be just 7kmh faster, this would make them move at the same speed as the average cyclist, which doesn't seem to ve asking much.

Why 7? Why not 10? 15? 40?

When I read threads like this, I hear people are really wanting an electric motorbike they can ride on bike paths.
Sure a fit enthusiast can go much faster than 25kmh, but are they the target market for the e-bike?

I think Comedian is right, those looking for pedal-free transport will migrate across to e-scooters and the like. Speed limited or otherwise.

[WyvernRH]

I think a common complaint is why they can't be just 7kmh faster, this would make them move at the same speed as the average cyclist, which doesn't seem to be asking much.

Sorry, the 'Average' cyclist does not move around the landscape at 32kph no matter what the fit young folk on this forum seem to think. Especially most of those who might consider using an e-bike.

Richard

[AUbicycles]

I appreciate this discussion and the input.


I have to work hard to keep an average of 30kmh over 100km whereas 25kmh over this distance is much easier and cruisey. In thus context I would suggest that (except on downhills) that 30km is quite a zwift pace.

For my commuting (traffic lights, turns, bike paths) I would rarely get up to 30km. With this in mind, I feel that the current limits are appropriate.

Regarding the adoption of seniors in Australia... bike riding infrastructure in Australia is rubbish compared to The Netherlands. Even in the election last weekend, there were bicycle voting facilities... and the Prime Minister still rides around on the bike.

Even with the Dutch transformation in cycling, the compact cities and historical use of bikes for transport also means it is more ingrained into the culture... while in Australia bike riding for transport was almost eradicated and needs time to restore even though many of the governments still see bicycle riding as an annoyance... evcept when it serves their purpose for greenwashing.

Australia wouldn’t see the same adoption from seniors for some time... although this doesn’t eliminate the risk when people who are unprepared for the power of an ebike... which is the point and why increasing the power would have consequences.

[stevenaaus]

My 2 cents is - speed limiting to 25kph is coming at it the wrong way. The problem is having *any* cyclist speeding over a safe speed on narrow bike ways. Lots of serious accidents happening.

I know it's a tough ask, but bikeway speeds should be sensible and enforced.

But perhaps 30kph is a better speed *if* we can only focus on ebike legislation. Just allows the oldies to keep up with the social groups.

[AUbicycles]

Common sense would be adjusting speed... and most of us will do this. But the laws are imposed for those that can’t and then the limits tend to then be problematic.

[Bentnose]

I think a common complaint is why they can't be just 7kmh faster, this would make them move at the same speed as the average cyclist, which doesn't seem to ve asking much.

Why 7? Why not 10? 15? 40?

When I read threads like this, I hear people are really wanting an electric motorbike they can ride on bike paths.
Sure a fit enthusiast can go much faster than 25kmh, but are they the target market for the e-bike?

I think Comedian is right, those looking for pedal-free transport will migrate across to e-scooters and the like. Speed limited or otherwise.

7 kms because that is the US standard for ebikes which I believe we should adopt.

As for another comment that the average cyclist doesn’t travel at 32kmh, I’m talking about maximum speed, if you have an ebike that can do 32kmh then the corresponding average will be much less. I’m also not one of these young blokes doing big average speeds, I’ll be 50 next year and the body is feeling it. I would consider commuting by ebike if we adopted the US standard of 32kmh. As it stands at the moment, with commuting to work twice this week, it was just too hard for that distance at sparrows fart in the morning and 25kmh top speed would take too long.

Another alternative is do something similar to the German model when it comes to allowing people to upgrade to 32kmh ebikes, though at 32kmh I don’t think we need the special helmets they do for their 45kmh? ebikes.

[Janice]

I would be happy if we have a 2 tier system of ebikes. Unregistered and unlicenced as well as a registered and licenced category. The lower speed limit could be 25. The higher speed limit could be 32.

25 is a painfully slow speed for commuting. It is also more dangerous as cars get annoyed at the huge speed differential. 32 is the more appropriate speed for the road.

[Mike Ayling]

I think a common complaint is why they can't be just 7kmh faster, this would make them move at the same speed as the average cyclist, which doesn't seem to be asking much.

Sorry, the 'Average' cyclist does not move around the landscape at 32kph no matter what the fit young folk on this forum seem to think. Especially most of those who might consider using an e-bike.

Richard

I am 78 and I ride with a group of over fifties. We rode 60km this morning on Melbourne bike paths and my average speed according to RidewithGPS was 17.6km/h. Other retiree groups that I have ridden with are about the same speed. We have had ebike riders join us from time to time and they are usually content to pootle along with us at 20km/h on the flats but tend to go uphills at 25km/h because they can!

Mike

[queequeg]

My own opinion on this is that it can be a fine line between an ebike and a moped/scooter if your door argument is about speed.

Essentially there is a group of people who want the unregulated aspect of ebikes so they don’t need to be registered or obtain a motorbike licence. It’s typically that group of people who behave the worst on shared infrastructure.

I’ve seen both types of rider on my commute, and a few who i would only pass on Strava when they’d smash some local KOM in their illegally modified 750w bike which can do 60km/h without pedaling. back before petrol kits were banned, I used to have guys fly past me on shared paths doing 50km/h on what was basically a motorbike disguised as a bicycle.

So my view is if you want to ride fast, just go and buy an electric motorbike or moped and be done with it. If you want to get some assistance then a pedelec is perfect, and 250W of assistance is pretty good. There are some hills where I have to put in 500W of effort to get up them, so on a pedelec i’d be cruising.

[rkelsen]

So where are the statistics that show Australian seniors are taking to e-bikes en masse and being injured as a result?

Here you go: https://theconversation.com/three-chart ... lia-116660
"The number of older people who have been killed or injured as a result of a crash while cycling is rising. Over the study period, the number of cyclists aged 45-64 who were hospitalised increased by almost 600%, and 500% among over-65s."
"One possible contributing factor for the rise in injuries among older Australians is the increase in use of electric bikes. Electric bikes, or e-bikes, are fitted with a motor that provides assistance when cycling and makes it easier to ride further and uphill with less effort."
"While e-bikes are a fun, efficient and easy way to get around, their popularity may contribute to the increase in injuries among older cyclists. Rusty bike handling skills, lower muscle strength, and issues with vision may all contribute to increased crash risk."

[Janice]

My own opinion on this is that it can be a fine line between an ebike and a moped/scooter if your door argument is about speed.

Essentially there is a group of people who want the unregulated aspect of ebikes so they don’t need to be registered or obtain a motorbike licence. It’s typically that group of people who behave the worst on shared infrastructure.

I’ve seen both types of rider on my commute, and a few who i would only pass on Strava when they’d smash some local KOM in their illegally modified 750w bike which can do 60km/h without pedaling. back before petrol kits were banned, I used to have guys fly past me on shared paths doing 50km/h on what was basically a motorbike disguised as a bicycle.

So my view is if you want to ride fast, just go and buy an electric motorbike or moped and be done with it. If you want to get some assistance then a pedelec is perfect, and 250W of assistance is pretty good. There are some hills where I have to put in 500W of effort to get up them, so on a pedelec i’d be cruising.

I've got a motorbike but I prefer my ebike because I get some exercise, it is safer because of the lower speed and I can park it anywhere. Ebikes offer something that motorbikes and pushbikes don't offer.

[rkelsen]

Sorry, the 'Average' cyclist does not move around the landscape at 32kph no matter what the fit young folk on this forum seem to think.

Excellent point. 30kph on a bike takes a significant amount of effort to sustain in all but ideal conditions.

[1Rowdy1]

Agree 100% with the OP.

[Janice]

So where are the statistics that show Australian seniors are taking to e-bikes en masse and being injured as a result?

Here you go: https://theconversation.com/three-chart ... lia-116660
"The number of older people who have been killed or injured as a result of a crash while cycling is rising. Over the study period, the number of cyclists aged 45-64 who were hospitalised increased by almost 600%, and 500% among over-65s."
"One possible contributing factor for the rise in injuries among older Australians is the increase in use of electric bikes. Electric bikes, or e-bikes, are fitted with a motor that provides assistance when cycling and makes it easier to ride further and uphill with less effort."
"While e-bikes are a fun, efficient and easy way to get around, their popularity may contribute to the increase in injuries among older cyclists. Rusty bike handling skills, lower muscle strength, and issues with vision may all contribute to increased crash risk."

That is just pure speculation. There are no figures on how many accidents were ebikes or how many kilometres were by ebike. The period of study ended in 2015. I'm not sure ebikes were that popular in 2015.