Sensah Empire

[warthog1]

A mate of mine has the full group set and it works very nicely.

Foo

Sounds like an option then

[foo on patrol]

A mate of mine has the full group set and it works very nicely.

Foo

Sounds like an option then

He is a mechanic in a bike shop and knows his chit.

Foo

[trailgumby]

Following. Interested in when they come out with hydraulic road brakes.

[warthog1]

OT deleted

[foo on patrol]

I'm not interested disc brakes for my road bikes but the MTB's is a different story.

Foo

[warthog1]

I'm not interested disc brakes for my road bikes but the MTB's is a different story.

Foo

Perhaps try them before writing them off
Got em on the Revolt and they work great.
Wider rims and tyres seem a positive too having used them now.

[trailgumby]

I'm not interested disc brakes for my road bikes but the MTB's is a different story.

Foo

'
We've had a few recent additions of disc brake users in our roadie group who have switched from rim brakes. After two safety incidents in the last two group rides, one of which resulted in me going OTB, landing on a dog being walked on the road shoulder, and fracturing fingers, I have recused myself from riding with them until I have a hydraulic disc braked weekend bike.

Both incidents were at least partly related to the different behaviour of rim vs disc brakes when riders were responding to other traffic on the road. In the case of the OTB, it was when a tradie ute overtaking on a blind corner decided to squeeze us rather than hit the brakes when a car came into view from the opposite direction on McCarrs Creek Road.

The other was due to one of the stronger riders paying no attention to communication and predictability, nor to what was going on around him traffic-wise, but my relative lack of braking power from the hoods was a factor for a second time.

Setting up hydros on my drop bar commuter bike has overwhelmingly reinforced to me that this is the right decision.

[warthog1]

off topic deleted

[foo on patrol]

I'm not interested disc brakes for my road bikes but the MTB's is a different story.

Foo

Perhaps try them before writing them off
Got em on the Revolt and they work great.
Wider rims and tyres seem a positive too having used them now.

Nah, I'm not spending a gazillion dollars on new frames, plus having the better pads for the rims does make a big difference, just like cars and motor bikes = softer pads = better braking but a bit quicker wear factor.

I'm fully behind disc brakes on off road bikes but meh on the road.

I have two no three different brands of CF Roads wheels and the braking ability of one of them, is just pure crap, compared to the other two and that's running the same brake pads.

Foo

[trailgumby]

Nah, I'm not spending a gazillion dollars on new frames, plus having the better pads for the rims does make a big difference, just like cars and motor bikes = softer pads = better braking but a bit quicker wear factor.

I'm fully behind disc brakes on off road bikes but meh on the road.

I have two no three different brands of CF Roads wheels and the braking ability of one of them, is just pure crap, compared to the other two and that's running the same brake pads.

Foo

'
Foo, do you mind my asking what pads you use on your alloy rims? I've used the Koolstop Salmon pads, Swiss Stop blue, and now Dura Ace. The last has been the best so far, but all are extremely ordinary compared to even non-OEM metallic disc pads (Ashima).

[foo on patrol]

Nah, I'm not spending a gazillion dollars on new frames, plus having the better pads for the rims does make a big difference, just like cars and motor bikes = softer pads = better braking but a bit quicker wear factor.

I'm fully behind disc brakes on off road bikes but meh on the road.

I have two no three different brands of CF Roads wheels and the braking ability of one of them, is just pure crap, compared to the other two and that's running the same brake pads.

Foo

'
Foo, do you mind my asking what pads you use on your alloy rims? I've used the Koolstop Salmon pads, Swiss Stop blue, and now Dura Ace. The last has been the best so far, but all are extremely ordinary compared to even non-OEM metallic disc pads (Ashima).

No, not at all. I have been using the Shimano pads on the ally rims and I have changed to some Swiss ones for my CF rims but in saying that, the Light Weight Bicycle Rims(or whatever they are called) are shocking for braking in the wet but my Zipp Weaponry with these pads are very good.

Foo

[warthog1]

OT deleted

[trailgumby]

No, not at all. I have been using the Shimano pads on the ally rims and I have changed to some Swiss ones for my CF rims but in saying that, the Light Weight Bicycle Rims(or whatever they are called) are shocking for braking in the wet but my Zipp Weaponry with these pads are very good.

Foo

'
Thanks, appreciated.

[familyguy]

Ok, so some setup notes.

Shifters: positioned ok, hoods fold back ok.
Brakes: not the nicest, but fitted easily, release levers a bit tight which may ease in time, pads adjust easily, even stops well.
BB: ensure you use the correct spacer each side and its straightforward, uses Shimano tool.
RD: easy. Cable routing, fitting, adjustment and tension.
FD: fits ok but setup is proving very painful. Take out the limit screws and ditch the springs up front to make them easier to adjust. I figured that out 20 minutes in. Cage adjusted to barely clear chain in 25 rear, rubs other side at about 7-8 cog. Cable tension seems to vary, quite hard to tune, which leaves the shift throw seemingly inadequate to even get onto big ring (in the stand). 40 minutes and it's still not rigjht. Will try again Wednesday.

[blizzard]

Ok, so some setup notes.

Shifters: positioned ok, hoods fold back ok.
Brakes: not the nicest, but fitted easily, release levers a bit tight which may ease in time, pads adjust easily, even stops well.
BB: ensure you use the correct spacer each side and its straightforward, uses Shimano tool.
RD: easy. Cable routing, fitting, adjustment and tension.
FD: fits ok but setup is proving very painful. Take out the limit screws and ditch the springs up front to make them easier to adjust. I figured that out 20 minutes in. Cage adjusted to barely clear chain in 25 rear, rubs other side at about 7-8 cog. Cable tension seems to vary, quite hard to tune, which leaves the shift throw seemingly inadequate to even get onto big ring (in the stand). 40 minutes and it's still not rigjht. Will try again Wednesday.

I know TraceVelo had issues setting up the Sensah FD and changed to a Shimano one (Tiagra I think?) and it was much better to setup and use.

[familyguy]

Ok, so some setup notes.

Shifters: positioned ok, hoods fold back ok.
Brakes: not the nicest, but fitted easily, release levers a bit tight which may ease in time, pads adjust easily, even stops well.
BB: ensure you use the correct spacer each side and its straightforward, uses Shimano tool.
RD: easy. Cable routing, fitting, adjustment and tension.
FD: fits ok but setup is proving very painful. Take out the limit screws and ditch the springs up front to make them easier to adjust. I figured that out 20 minutes in. Cage adjusted to barely clear chain in 25 rear, rubs other side at about 7-8 cog. Cable tension seems to vary, quite hard to tune, which leaves the shift throw seemingly inadequate to even get onto big ring (in the stand). 40 minutes and it's still not rigjht. Will try again Wednesday.

I know TraceVelo had issues setting up the Sensah FD and changed to a Shimano one (Tiagra I think?) and it was much better to setup and use.

Even the attempts last night were showing that, operationally, something isn't quite right. The lever throw doesn't pull cable for the first part, even under cranked tension, then doesn't move enough for the second motion. Limit screws were taken out to ensure I wasn't getting caught with that adjustment preventing the cage swing, so I'll dissect the issue in the light at some stage.

[familyguy]

Success.

All the pivot points have some float/slack in them, which needs to be removed by getting high cable tension. Also, turning the FD so the back end of the cage points slightly outboard helped, as did lifting it 1-2mm above where you'd position a Shimano FD relative to the chainrings. I had to put the high limit screw spring back in, as you can turn it easily with your fingertips, so I reckon it would inevitably shake loose or move. Set the FD with the low limit screw all the way in, clamping the cable, then adjusting it so it barely doesn't rub in 1st gear, which bought on almost enough tension. It still needed a few turns on the DT adjuster to get it so that it began moving when the shifter was moved, not halfway through the lever swing. Once that was all done, it shifted OK. The first click in each direction is just a short hop to remove chain-rub, a la Shimano. Seems to be a big lever throw on the up FD change though, even for my big hands.

Just some bar tape to go on and it's testable. Once it dries out.

Jim

[familyguy]

OK, so more tuning and a ride shows that 70% of this groupset is pretty good, 20% needed some attention and 10% is downright awful.

70%: RD, shifters, brakes. Lever and hood size and feel is nice. Rear change is crisp, all the way up and down. Limit screws don't move. Brakes feel firm without being light switches. The little tab that prevents gear changes while braking wasn't intrusive. Throw is bigger than other makers, but not overly worrisome on first use. See notes below for front shifting, cause that's a whole different ball game.

20%: Chainrings were not quite running square to the spindle, resulting in a wave through the pedal stroke visible from the seat. Removed the chainrings and had a look across them to confirm it wasn't built into the ring. Maybe a tiny bit of manufacturer wobble there, but reassembling the spider, chainrings and resetting the chainring bolts got most of this out. Pretty good in the end. The BB seems very tight when done up to force and it certainly adds resistance. Cranks did not spin easily but time will tell whether this will ease with use. When not done up to force you can probably look forward to a self-loosening crankset.

10%: the FD. The adjustment just seems to be all over the place. Variable depending on the time of day or the weather. No matter the tuning or position, getting it right for one position meant it wouldn't function in others. Not just wouldn't function well, would not function. Cage set to barely rubbing the chain on the small ring in low gear? Forget ever being able to reach the big ring, even with a massive lever throw. Tilt the cage inwards at the rear to prevent rub? You can't tune out the rub at higher gears or on the big ring. Tune it at the big ring position to prevent hitting the cage with the crank? You'll never get it to shift up past the limit screw once you drop down. It almost feels like the cage has been made too wide to make up for it being too long to prevent rubbing or something, so the first half of the shift is simply moving the cage across the chain line. I've had 40 year old Suntour ARx stuff that has worked better than this. I will try a Tiagra/105 FD with it and see if that helps before long.

Also have a bunch of photos and some extra notes that I'll turn into a review and get put someplace.

Still, $470 plus $25 for a replacement FD seems cheap compared to new Tiagra 4700 10-speed at $600.
Edit for a few things: Cheapest I could find Tiagra 4700 groupsets locally online was c.$675, which makes a $175 saving look good. Offshore (if they will ship it) was nearing $750 by the time it all lands. So IF you can find Tiagra for sale, IF it's local (or they aren't listening to the Shimano geoblock), IF you can get it without one part being out of stock and waiting, then MAYBE Tiagra and the spare parts game might sway you. The main question I have around the Sensah is replacement hoods. Bust a lever and you're on your own, I'd wager too.

[familyguy]

Another weekend, another setup test for that FD. It still fails in most senses. Even with the cage rubbing the inside plate on low gear, the throw either pushes the cage into the crank arm to engage the chain, or if you set the limit screw to avoid that, the chain skips on the chainring pins and refuses to move onto the big ring. Have tried a variation in cage angle and/or twisting the cage itself on the FD body. Yet to try one other option of FD height to see if that assists, but I can't really see how it will solve it.

It sure feels like the fundamental problem is that the cage is just too wide for the system and it throws the geometry of the shifts out of whack for whichever ring you aren't specifically tuning it for. I measured an Ultegra 10s cage at c.11mm and a Deore XT triple cage at c.16mm. The Empire cage is c.14mm.

More to come when I get to it.

[nickobec]

Another weekend, another setup test for that FD. It still fails in most senses.

Have you tried setting up as a SRAM yaw FD ie not straight ? Never could get my SRAM FD working properly, I was installing as per Shimano. Then I read the SRAM instructions (and still do when I play with a SRAM FD) and that solve the issue. Seeing rumour has it Sensah engineers are ex-SRAM.

[trailgumby]

Another weekend, another setup test for that FD. It still fails in most senses.

Have you tried setting up as a SRAM yaw FD ie not straight ? Never could get my SRAM FD working properly, I was installing as per Shimano. Then I read the SRAM instructions (and still do when I play with a SRAM FD) and that solve the issue. Seeing rumour has it Sensah engineers are ex-SRAM.

Ye, I found that as well with SRAM, especially when mixing with Shimano MTB shifters (back when there was alleged to be some compatibility at least for the front). The pull ratio was a little off and setting up with no cable slack on the inner ring led to dramatic over-shifting off the outside of the outer ring. Instead of working from small chainring out, you had to work from big chainring in.

[familyguy]

OK, further notes after more riding.

Issue #1: There are no setup marks a la SRAM on the FD or cage. Tried a bit of toe both ways, similar results, but slightly better with a faint hint of toe out and the outer cage plate directly over the big ring. A spoonful of Shimano, a pinch of SRAM. Shifted acceptably on the trial commute run this morning with the limit screw adjusted a little to prevent it hitting the crank arm each revolution.

Issue #2: The bottom bracket bolt, which bolts in from the drive side to the spindle fixed into the NDS crank arm, keeps coming loose. The suggested torque is an eye-popping 50Nm. I'm sure doing that would crush bearings, given that the cranks are very difficult to spin at what feels like 20Nm. The spacers that were provided on the BB were fitted. There are no installation instructions or notes, but there were a couple of different thickness spacers kicking around in the box, so I'll swap a few around at the weekend and see what results. Instead of carrying the 8mm hex with me and tightening it up every 15 minutes.

[trailgumby]

The suggested torque is an eye-popping 50Nm.

That's not at all unusual. My SRAM cranks have 48Nm written on the drive side bolt, the Rotor 3D+ cranks are not much less at 40Nm. I bought the Park Tool torque wrench specifically for this job as - like you - I'm not a fan of things coming loose any more than I am of bike mechanics who are too arrogant to use them and end up overtightening everything to billy-o.

You should be able to adjust side bearing preload independently of assembly bolt torque. Is there no little dial for this on the non drive side?

[familyguy]

You should be able to adjust side bearing preload independently of assembly bolt torque. Is there no little dial for this on the non drive side?

While this is the MTB version, it shows the same assembly, with no adjustment unless you count maybe fiddling the self-extracting bolt cap on the DS crank arm, but that would open another problem:


More fettling to come.

Despite all this sounding doom and gloom, if I can overcome these niggles, I think it's a worthwhile groupset, frankly. Feels good in the hand, does what it should, won't break your bank balance. With Di105 on the horizon that might leave Tiagra as Shimano's workhorse cable gruppo, this might make a 22s cable group like this more attractive to some people.

[trailgumby]

Adjusting the cap clearance will have no impact on bearing preload - the room you're aiming to provide is on the wrong side, and will only impact what happens when you loosen the crank axle bolt.

I'd call the lack of end float/preload adjustment a design failure. Obviously it's designed to save cost, but it's quite inappropriate.