Why power measurement is important

[brentono]

Alex,
Thanks for the fair and balanced view from you, regarding your thoughts on
using power meters, and it sounds like a good tool to add to your arsenal for coaching
and training. My points are made from a balanced view, and really only personal
opinion, and since I'm a has-been, probably have no relevance in training today.

Andrew,
And as for your emotional outburt, with statements like

maybe "head in the sand" are them

using technology well beyond what would have been around in your racing days (i.e, the telephone). Funny that.

You know nothing about what I know, or what was around in my day...
For the short time you've been involved in Cycling, what would think or know, what was around in my day.
FYI-I was using most advanced computers late 60's early 70's and there was pier to pier science group relays in those days.
FYI-I was trading shares in 1985, by computer, from home, on the then "Internet"..... what were you doing then
FYI-What sort of equipment do you think was available to the medical Dept, at the University of WA
Where do you think the technology came from, just now it is available for personal use. It didn't just appear from the heavens.
Maybe it's you with the "head in the sand" so you don't have to listen to another point of view.
Will just finish up with what I have already said... on meters, and leave it at that

(as a guide-Yes, as the most important-NO!)

Thanks,
BrentonO

[ni78ck]

back to the topic now................

[ft_critical]

Say you were coaching a rider who was focussed on timed cycling events, such as time trials.
How important do you think that an understanding of aerodynamics plays in their performance? Hint: It's huge.

Guess what one can objectively determine with the smart use of a power meter?
A: The best (fastest) position
A: smart equipment choices (IOW not rely on marketing rubbish, or what "looks fast", or at what the pros ride, since they ride what they are given, not what's best).

This adds some colour to the above, and was certainly an eye-opener when I first read it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/how-aero-is-aero

I look at the incredible amount of $ spent on pretty carbon frames and wheels etc etc, but not a lot spent on things that will have a far greater impact on performance, such as coaching, good training methodology (physical, mental and skills/tactics as appropriate for given events), good position on a bike, good diet and recovery. After that comes sensible equipment choices.

The above is so true. If I had my time over again, I would have popped off to say Steve Hogg, got all my measurements and purchased an appropriate entry level racing bike. Next I would have invested in a part-time coach. Occasional visits to the physio to work out what was wrong with my pedal action - based on what was going wrong with my body (I did this part.) Then maybe aids such as a Powermeter.

One comment I would make, is that I think there is a middle ground between the arguments. I have heard many commentators on power meters, most whom have a vested interest, espousing that any level of cyclist can benefit from a power meter. I personally believe that there is valuable work (such as Brenton is outlining) such as developing and understanding of the body/mind/biomechanics etc., that should be done before getting a power meter. I think this would make it far more of a helpful tool rather than a crutch or a compensator etc.

I will get one when they are interchangable between my bikes and the whole package is 1000 AUD. Go currency parity, go.

[clack3rz]

Wow - a very *interesting* thread, that seems to be getting out-of-hand......

Anyways - it has got me thinking a little. I was planning on joining a club and starting to do some crits this year. I had thoughts of maybe upgrading my bike if I found that 'this was for me'
I've started to do some 'training' towards crits before rolling up to my first race, and currently use a Garmin Edge for my training (using the Advanced Workouts I've punched in some intervals, sprints, etc and use this on the local crit course), but this thread has got me thinking that maybe a powermeter is a possible option instead of saving up for a better spec'd bike.....
I've really found that having a workout set and using a meter as a guide has really helped in my training. I still use some perceived effort - but mainly in how my body has reacted and how I should perform on my next days ride.
I use the data collected mainly to review post ride/workout.

I'll keep an eye out for some PT buys....

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I will get one when they are interchangable between my bikes and the whole package is 1000 AUD. Go currency parity, go.

You can buy new Powertap Comp model + Cervo computer kit for US$650. + delivery and local wheel build. Add an extra harness for 2nd bike. easily under A$1k all up for power on two bikes.

[ft_critical]

I've started to do some 'training' towards crits before rolling up to my first race, and currently use a Garmin Edge for my training (using the Advanced Workouts I've punched in some intervals, sprints, etc and use this on the local crit course)

Next logical progression of this discussion....

I will be interested in Alex's comments but....

An experience I have is that I stopped racing actively last year and trained intensively for three months with a rigid programme in preparation for an event. I set Personal Best performances after two months and was really smashing it up. I thought. The problem was that my performances were fantastic relative to my previous performances, BUT not relative to the competition (well not the top guys.) The point of this is that (and this might be my ignorace,) I needed to raise the bar but I didn't know the level.

My current programme is less structured. It involves racing at any opportunity against as high a level as possible. E.g., I recent raced beside Chris Sutton for 1/4 of a lap. Several laps behind him. Several more far behind him and so on. Point was, that was teaching me more about what I need to do than I think a power meter could.

However, if someone who did know the benchmarks - e.g., a coach, created a programme for me and we integrated the use of a Powermeter into that programme, then I definately see the value. However, a powermeter alone is not the answer.

Racing is the best training for racing.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

My points are made from a balanced view, and really only personal opinion, and since I'm a has-been, probably have no relevance in training today.

Anyone who can instill a passion and love for the sport of cycling in others will never be a has-been. We all have a role to play in promoting the sport to the up n comers as well as the late starters.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I will be interested in Alex's comments but....

Racing is the best training for racing.

Pithy power proverb: "specificity, specificity, specificity" - A.R. Coggan

The main danger can be for riders that require additional recovery after racing/pre race freshening up such that their fitness actually declines after a while as they are unable to maintain a progression in workload.

[brentono]

Ft_critical,
You seem to well versed, and current... and your logic, sounds "sound" to me.
You have a balanced view of the meter's use, and you seem to be willing to
go the extra yards, all the best in your competitions.
"Go forth young man, and destroy "

Alex,
Thanks for the "big up" If only one person on this site can see the picture,
I may have made a difference, and may have a role to play.
(at least a has-been, is better than a never-will-be )

FYI-I was trading shares in 1985, by computer, from home, on the then "Internet".....

(and for those who think they are so hip, up with the technology, got the smarts and are today-cool)

... That was personal use, latest Amiga 1000 computer, dealing stocks on the ASX in Sydney (from Perth)
using Viatel at around $10 per hour, over the telephone lines, at STD rates... at 2400 bits per second, at best.
(and was paid for out of my own pocket)

You betta believe it. (that's 25 years ago, for those that need calculators)

Cheers,
BrentonO

[twizzle]

I will get one when they are interchangable between my bikes and the whole package is 1000 AUD. Go currency parity, go.

You can buy new Powertap Comp model + Cervo computer kit for US$650. + delivery and local wheel build. Add an extra harness for 2nd bike. easily under A$1k all up for power on two bikes.

Try $650 Au. delivered to the door.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

... That was personal use, latest Amiga 1000 computer, dealing stocks on the ASX in Sydney (from Perth)
using Viatel at around $10 per hour, over the telephone lines, at STD rates... at 2400 bits per second, at best.
(and was paid for out of my own pocket)

I was using Viatel on my Commodore 64 years before the Amiga
2400 bps - luxury!! 300 for me.....

[clack3rz]

I will get one when they are interchangable between my bikes and the whole package is 1000 AUD. Go currency parity, go.

You can buy new Powertap Comp model + Cervo computer kit for US$650. + delivery and local wheel build. Add an extra harness for 2nd bike. easily under A$1k all up for power on two bikes.

Try $650 Au. delivered to the door.

Where from?

[toolonglegs]

I will get one when they are interchangable between my bikes and the whole package is 1000 AUD. Go currency parity, go.

You can buy new Powertap Comp model + Cervo computer kit for US$650. + delivery and local wheel build. Add an extra harness for 2nd bike. easily under A$1k all up for power on two bikes.

Try $650 Au. delivered to the door.

Not with a built wheel I hope

[twizzle]

You can buy new Powertap Comp model + Cervo computer kit for US$650. + delivery and local wheel build. Add an extra harness for 2nd bike. easily under A$1k all up for power on two bikes.

Try $650 Au. delivered to the door.

Where from?

ExcelSports. Ordered last Friday, arrived this morning just before 8am. Originally I was going to buy just a hub and a second wiring kit... but those parts came almost to the same price as a complete kit, so now I have a spare computer, a dock I can use at work, and more of those awesome sticky cable strips.

TLL - bare unit, the shipping on a wheel is rather expensive, adds about $250 to the price. I have a spare DeepV rim in the shed which I broke the freehub on.

[clack3rz]

ExcelSports. Ordered last Friday, arrived this morning just before 8am. Originally I was going to buy just a hub and a second wiring kit... but those parts came almost to the same price as a complete kit, so now I have a spare computer, a dock I can use at work, and more of those awesome sticky cable strips.

Seems a pretty good price for the package.
However the wheel itself and then installing the hub would be expensive.
I currently have a set of Fulcrums - Racing 7's.

What would a fair price be to have the hub installed to a wheel?

[VZMY06SS]

ExcelSports. Ordered last Friday, arrived this morning just before 8am. Originally I was going to buy just a hub and a second wiring kit... but those parts came almost to the same price as a complete kit, so now I have a spare computer, a dock I can use at work, and more of those awesome sticky cable strips.

Seems a pretty good price for the package.
However the wheel itself and then installing the hub would be expensive.
I currently have a set of Fulcrums - Racing 7's.

What would a fair price be to have the hub installed to a wheel?

Assuming you have all the parts required I got quoted $50 labour by my LBS.

Steve

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I currently have a set of Fulcrums - Racing 7's.

What would a fair price be to have the hub installed to a wheel?

Building a wheel isn't that dear, but use a good wheelbuilder.
However, you'll need to choose a rim that uses standard spoke holes and an even L-R spoke count.

[clack3rz]

I currently have a set of Fulcrums - Racing 7's.

What would a fair price be to have the hub installed to a wheel?

Building a wheel isn't that dear, but use a good wheelbuilder.
However, you'll need to choose a rim that uses standard spoke holes and an even L-R spoke count.

OK thanks. Will keep an eye out for some suitable wheels/rims - either fleabay or WTB

[brentono]

... That was personal use, latest Amiga 1000 computer, dealing stocks on the ASX in Sydney (from Perth)
using Viatel at around $10 per hour, over the telephone lines, at STD rates... at 2400 bits per second, at best.
(and was paid for out of my own pocket)

I was using Viatel on my Commodore 64 years before the Amiga
2400 bps - luxury!! 300 for me.....

Alex,
The comment wasn't aimed at you (there was no need to jump )
I was aimed at the juniors on the site, and the calculator (which is a tool, and a tech advancement)
pump, is an example. It still amuses me these days (remember the old ringing till) when you hand
over $5 or $10 on a few dollar item, and they need to work it out on the computerised checkout.
There is a great example of technology over taking a body (brain) response and making it useless.
Can think of others with the phone, and texting (loss of conversation)
And this was a possible effect, of too much relience on meters (this was my view, at least)

And on the Viatel, as stated "2400 bits per second, at best. " yeah sure, had 300/400bps also, and even had Uni (O/S) connections
in the mid-90's go that low.
Using years before me, I don't think so

VIATEL is the term coined by Telecom Australia to describe the forthcoming computer-based information retrieval system.
A centrally based computer will be used to store information and the existing telephone network used to distribute that information.
Anyone with a specially adapted television set, keypad and telephone will be able to use this Public Database by the end of 1984.

http://www.ascilite.org.au/ajet/ajet1/hosie.html
Viatel, was launched by Telecom Australia on 28th February 1985.
No worries.

Cheers,
BrentonO

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Alex,
The comment wasn't aimed at you (there was no need to jump )

I didn't think it was, it just brought back memories, that's all!

Viatel, was launched by Telecom Australia on 28th February 1985.

I could have sworn I was online with Viatel before '85 but it was around about that vintage.

It died when a thunderstorm killed my modem and C-64

Remember setting up email service for a small international network of people around about that time when the first Macs started, we had (slow) modems and used a service provider call Minerva I think.

[brentono]

Alex,
Can dig the early days in computing and networking, was in there boots and all,
software, hardware, systems, basically where I was, you taught yourself everything,
Technology was moving so fast, that teachers, weren't up with it, wonder even if they
are today? The movement of computing in the end of the 90's was lightning (no pun).

It died when a thunderstorm killed my modem and C-64

Video killed the radio star. Lightning, killed your modem.
What did you have to revert to, when you lost your technology
Mid-nineties, as you know, was the very early "internet" (as we know it), was O/S and had a link,
through a University, and most speeds, even then, got down to 300/400bps, it was
sometimes, so painful, just to get one screen to load. Those were the days.
No worries, we all get confused
You seem to be getting great results from your meter, now (from what I have observed).
It seems to work for you, so all the best, the skies the limit, now you are back to peak.
Cheers,
BrentonO

[Rockford]

(and for those who think they are so hip, up with the technology, got the smarts and are today-cool)

It was cool 25 years ago. Now it's just history, it doesn't give you any cred nowadays, trust me. And just for the record I've worked in I.T for 20 years, so unless I'm hip with VM, SAN's, Exchange, Srv2008, Facebook, COD2 I have no credibility even though I paid $1300 for my first 2400bps modem, and $1500 for a CD-Rom kit and wrote in Assembler.

It's like the oldies saying they were one of the first in the street with a TV and how cool they were watching Pot Black in b&w and having to get up and change the channel. Kids just roll their eyes and go back to their 50" HD LCD screens with 100 channels.

[Aushiker]

(and for those who think they are so hip, up with the technology, got the smarts and are today-cool)

It was cool 25 years ago. Now it's just history, it doesn't give you any cred nowadays, trust me. And just for the record I've worked in I.T for 20 years, so unless I'm hip with VM, SAN's, Exchange, Srv2008, Facebook, COD2 I have no credibility even though I paid $1300 for my first 2400bps modem, and $1500 for a CD-Rom kit and wrote in Assembler. .

Well said. It is like me mentioning that wrote in COBOL (my very short foray into programming) .... Sadly it never was cool

Andrew

[twizzle]

I STILL write in COBOL from time to time.

[brentono]

Andrew,
You made the technology (or lack off) slag off

Well said. It is like me mentioning that wrote in COBOL (my very short foray into programming) .... Sadly it never was cool

Cobol and Fortran were around in my early computing era, and punchcards, big deal.

I'm definately not looking for "CRED" from the kiddies around here, and I was was never trying to be COOL,
with my posts, I actually got quite bored with computers quite a few years back, they are a tool, just as meters are,
but most people have no idea or need for them, but they still have to buy/buy/buy (consume) for no apparent reason,
just to have the latest and be cool.

Todays Cool is tomorrows Dinosaur.
(I've just had a swag of the latest computer technologies thrown at me to use, and just about can't be bothered
to fire some of them up, unless I can see the value in going through the steps to make it functional, and useful.)

About as useful as I would find a Power Meter, at this stage in my Cycling.

Don't worry about it too much, go out and get on your bike, and go for a ride, don't sulk

Cheers,
BrentonO