20 Minutes is a long time!

[Alex Simmons/RST]

but didn't realise how hard it would be to keep a steady wattage on rolling terrain...

yes, it is remarkable isn't it? notice how you go a lot faster when you keep the pressure on the slight declines?

but don't get too caught up with it needing to be completely steady either. There are days to attack the rises, and days to go in moderation. This is where getting your head around Normalised Power will help.

...but power certainly keeps you honest!.

Aye, it does.

Some nice watts there.
You're what, 95kg?
~3.7W/kg at FTP.

I'm ~ 3.4W/kg at the mo.

In contract, Jayson who set the hour record the other week did that at 5W/kg.
Top Pros (not on the juice) are pushing towards 6W/kg.

[Ant.]

My guesstimated FTP at the moment is 350W...but until I feel refreshed enough to do a proper test can't be sure...

I'm sure Alex is qualified to comment on this, I am not, but I think FTP is exactly that - functional being the key word as oppose to being totally 100% rested/tapered and in peak form to do it.
Also, 350W, hmm, you certainly put out power, but I dunno. Your repeatable 20min power doesn't represent that. But maybe you can do more and put out more, as it's certainly not easy to do intervals aiming for an average power that doesn't fluctuate too much. I have no evidence here, but my gut feeling is that beginners (to power meters) start too hard and fade, or don't aim for a suitably hard enough power that represents their FTP.

Down with FTP. Long live the MAP

[toolonglegs]

Alas! Your poor bike! What a stressful life it leads!

I would of thought that was a quite easy day for my bike...I will post a hard day when I do one .

[toolonglegs]

Alex...normalized power is something you only get on WKO+ right?.Yep 95-96kgs at the moment...my power to weight will never be much good but if I can hold the power (I want to improve of course!) but drop 10 kilos it will look better!...at least over 4W per kg.
But I will never be 5wKG...but one can dream!.
Ant I agree with what you are saying..and I also agree that these current graphs might not show very well my ftp...reason I say I will know better when rested is that I am only just 2 days back on the bike after 3 or 4 days very much under the weather...My HR threshold is somewhere between 168-175 so I am a long way off "pushing it" in these with HR averages in the low 150's...and I certainly wasn't feel "on" yesterday...so if not 350 then very close...but once I do the test I will know! ...although I suppose you have to do a couple for your first to get a good idea.
Down with FTP. Long live the MAP ..you might have to explain that one as well

[Alex Simmons/RST]

My guesstimated FTP at the moment is 350W...but until I feel refreshed enough to do a proper test can't be sure...

I'm sure Alex is qualified to comment on this, I am not, but I think FTP is exactly that - functional being the key word as oppose to being totally 100% rested/tapered and in peak form to do it.

There are a couple of schools of thought on the definition, but I rely on Dr Coggan's from the book since he coined the term in the first place. I go for the maximal quasi-steady state 1-hr average power when not overly fatigued. Some do prefer to be fully tapered for such a test effort but you are right, it is functional in that i. "Alls you can do is alls you can do" and ii. fully tapering for testing is simply not practical and a waste of hard earned CTL. Use a taper for when it really matters.

Also, 350W, hmm, you certainly put out power, but I dunno. Your repeatable 20min power doesn't represent that. But maybe you can do more and put out more, as it's certainly not easy to do intervals aiming for an average power that doesn't fluctuate too much. I have no evidence here, but my gut feeling is that beginners (to power meters) start too hard and fade, or don't aim for a suitably hard enough power that represents their FTP.

I wasn't so hard on suggesting whether or not TLL's FTP is 350W or not, since the ride file graphs posted were not full on efforts:

...and I didn't find these too hard...but certainly not easy either...

It's not until one tests the limits, does one find out where they are.
Bit like trying to find the edge of a cliff in the dark.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Alex...normalized power is something you only get on WKO+ right?.

I think (but not certain) NP (or same thing with another name) is available in a couple of packages but yes WKO+ provides it as a matter of course. You can also calculate it yourself in a spreadsheet, it's not hard, just need to export the file from Poweragent and then apply the right formula to the power data. It's just way more convenient to have the software do it for you. It can then also do all the charting of progress, e.g. set up a chart showing maximal 1-hr NP for each 4-week period.

[toolonglegs]

Ok...still not really a test as I am still not feeling 100% but this gives me a bit better picture.I rolled off to the same climb I did last time...with the aim of doing the whole climb and not just 20 minutes....it isn't ideal as you see there is a 2 or so minute section which is downhill and mucks up my average even thou I was trying to keep the power up through it.Also I forgot to put a 12-27 cluster on...doh!...and had to do it in a 11-23 (stupid mistake!)...and I thought it would take me close to an hour but even thou I pulled the pin at 40 minutes due to lack of motivation...I have taken close to 10 minutes off my previous best time for this climb!...pacing is obviously still an issue as well.
Really have to find the ideal place to do this...can't do it any where flat at the moment as it is so windy this month it is to hard to keep steady!.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

nice effort. I don't think 350W is far wrong for FTP.

your normalised power would be higher than the 349 W average power, mainly due to the pacing variance. It looks as though you went a bit hard in the first section but that's hard to say without knowing the terrain in detail. Will be intresting to see how you go on flatter ground.

[toolonglegs]

Thanks Alex...yeah definately went a bit hard to begin with...but better pacing than last time but still not great...with Normalized power & Average Power which would you take as ftp?...or is a mixture of both...eitherway I am going to set my training up to a 350 ftp for now.
Also how accurate to you think the cadence is just on the PT hub?...seems a little bit low to me...but then again I shocked myself by climbing that hill in a 11-23!.
Trying to think of a suitable flat course....will have to be a 20 minute test as you travel to far otherwise! .

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Thanks Alex...yeah definately went a bit hard to begin with...but better pacing than last time but still not great...with Normalized power & Average Power which would you take as ftp?...or is a mixture of both...eitherway I am going to set my training up to a 350 ftp for now.
Also how accurate to you think the cadence is just on the PT hub?...seems a little bit low to me...but then again I shocked myself by climbing that hill in a 11-23!.
Trying to think of a suitable flat course....will have to be a 20 minute test as you travel to far otherwise! .

For a 1 hour hard effort, AP>=FTP>=NP. Exactly where depends on a few things.

From a hard 1-hr race effort such as a crit, then FTP will typically be closer to NP than AP, by quite some margin. Fot a quasi steady state effort, then NP won't be that much higher than AP, so it's a moot point.

If you were in the same gear the whole time, then you know the gear, you know the speed and you presumably know the rollout (since that would need to be entered into the PT's CPU), so calculating cadence shouldn't be hard....

[Ant.]

There was something on the wattage forum a while ago about Gustav Larsson and his power on the Solvang TT? More to the tune of how badly underestimated his FTP was previously?
The moral that I took from that story, was it doesn't matter too much. Rough enough is good enough; the PMC is robust enough to handle such things, which is what my thoughts would be if I didn't have the boss in charge of said PMC.

I don't know my FTP (but I'm fairly sure Ric does). I do know my repeatable 20, 5 and 4 minute power intervals, that's good enough for me. I changed my threshold from 240 to 270 on trainingpeaks, and low and behold, the shape of the PMC graph looks the same, same general upward trend with the dip-hiccup where I crashed, just absolute numbers read differently. In fact that's probably wrong aswell since '270' in RST zones looks to tell me 175-198W. Oh well, like I said, I know my interval power, and the general trend of my PMC, coach can handle the specifics if he wants to.

I'd just set it at 350W and change it when you have some good evidence to suggest otherwise. I personally wouldn't base your intervals off a % of your FTP, I'd just do them, and see if it was too much/not enough, and go from there. Non-interval training zones on the other hand probably blend into each other too much, so a certain level, based on a % of a not-quite-right-FTP should barely matter.

Again, I'm well unqualified etc.
Loving the power meter? Gotten used to how it jumps around? Have your legs gotten used to what it feels like to slack off 20W during an interval?

[toolonglegs]

Feeling the love in my legs today...lucky Wed is nearly always a rest day.
Yeah still get used to metering my efforts...I don't think I would know a 20W variant yet...but like I say...I need a better road to test on.The only ideal ones have too much traffic!.I am still yet to do my shorter length tests to find my 5min,1min etc but you could say the power meter has totally stuffed up my training in a good way...because at the moment it is a new gadget which is too much fun!...once the novelty wears off a bit I think it will become a lot more usefull as a tool as I won't be testing myself everywhere ...also looking forward to seeing a couple of race files on it.
Hopefully I am healthy this weekend!.I have also registered myself for the departmental championships on the 23rd (I think)...which finish on a climb,very tough course for me but will be racing elites so will be good idea whether I should try and win a Div 2 or hide...OK of course I am going for the win but in the back of my mind I know it is a shortcut to Div1.If anyone said I would be racing A grade in Oz I would of laughed in their faces .

[Andrew69]

In the spirit of not feeling left out, my peak 5sec is 963W (I've never trained it or specifically gone to test it before, that's just what a crit told me)

1006W for 5 sec (AT) 80kgs , but my FTP is waaaay below yours.
Time to start spanking those 2x20min intervals...

[Ant.]

In the spirit of not feeling left out, my peak 5sec is 963W (I've never trained it or specifically gone to test it before, that's just what a crit told me)

1006W for 5 sec (AT) 80kgs , but my FTP is waaaay below yours.
Time to start some coaching...

Much better

[Andrew69]

After watching Jayson go round and round DGV with Alex yelling at him, I am seriously tempted to get some coaching.
I reckon I would go alright with Alex yelling at me

[toolonglegs]

Am I right that the kJ's that are shown under work is pretty much equal to the Kcals that I have burnt?.I think that is right...it seems I do a lot more work than I ever thought I did...well what my CS200 would tell me anyway.Today I did 85km and 2000kJ...but only with a HR av of 115.Just a longish endurance ride to check out a race route coming up.At about 2.5hours that is 800kj per hour...at that HR my CS200 would have said about 600 Kcal per hour max.On my hardish effort 2 days ago I would have been doing about 12-1300 kj per hour....thats a lot of fuel to put in!.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Am I right that the kJ's that are shown under work is pretty much equal to the Kcals that I have burnt?.I think that is right...it seems I do a lot more work than I ever thought I did...well what my CS200 would tell me anyway.Today I did 85km and 2000kJ...but only with a HR av of 115.Just a longish endurance ride to check out a race route coming up.At about 2.5hours that is 800kj per hour...at that HR my CS200 would have said about 600 Kcal per hour max.On my hardish effort 2 days ago I would have been doing about 12-1300 kj per hour....thats a lot of fuel to put in!.

That's a reasonable approximation (it would certainly be more reliable than a HR based estimate). The exact conversion of kJ delivered to wheel vs kCal burned depends somewhat on your individual metabolic efficiency (typically 19-24%).

[toolonglegs]

To tell the the truth I have no idea how to read this file (I am not fishing Alex...just stating I am a total beginner!)..bit pee'd off that my heart rate dropped out before the race started for some reason and I didn't notice.Also cadence is way off...I don't find the hub cadence very accurate and can see why they sell a separate unit for cadence.
But anyway this was a nice race...really nice course with a little climb which I didn't have too much trouble with...I could easily roll up to the front at the bottom of the climb most laps (17 laps) and drift back saving precious energy for later.I usually floated near the rear and only once put in a big effort to chase down a break.I don't think it would have been very easy to escape...hence no one did and I even thou I did jump on a couple of little breaks I never committed to them as they were not going to work.
So I waited ofr the sprint...but knew it wouldn't suit me...climb finishing about 600 meters out then into a very tight right hander and 100 meters to the line.Watched the finish of Div3 and watch a guy over cook it and end up in a ditch...breaking a 4000 euro frame!..ouch!!!.
But anyway I was sitting pretty on the last lap and in top 10 for the climb trying not to get boxed in and everyone was exploding around me...in a bad way.Guys were just blowing and sitting up on the climb...so once I finally saw clear air it was a bit late...I came into the last corner in 6th but had to slow down too much due to a rider in front and ended up being in too big a gear which I couldn't get on top of for the mini sprit to the line...so ended up 6th in my second Div2 race...will definatly win one soon when I get a sprint that suits me ...but then I am straight to Div1 .
Had a max wattage of 1172 and a 5 sec of 1043w but that wasn't in the sprint..was 8 minutes before the finish...so still don't know what I can top out at there.
15sec continous over 1000w for some reason at the hour mark..whoops.
15 times over 800w for 5secs or more
14 times over 500w for 30secs or more
Only 6 times did I spend more than 1 minute over 400w and only once did I spend more than 2 minutes over 400w
Shows it was a funny race!...at no time did I find it hard...but it did take a bit out of me.

[mcnute]

For some reason power to wind resistance seems to favour the big.

If that were true then Jayson Austin, at 60-61kg would not have set a new record for the hour the other week.
Levi L is hardly big (winner of GT TTs).
Boardman is hardly big (world pursuit record, two world hour records).

Obviously not true then. Thanks for correcting me. Post above edited.

What is this neuromuscular power? has it to do with the power enabled by creatine?

[mcnute]

To tell the the truth I have no idea how to read this file (I am not fishing Alex...just stating I am a total beginner!)..bit pee'd off that my heart rate dropped out before the race started for some reason and I didn't notice.Also cadence is way off...I don't find the hub cadence very accurate and can see why they sell a separate unit for cadence.
But anyway this was a nice race...really nice course with a little climb which I didn't have too much trouble with...I could easily roll up to the front at the bottom of the climb most laps (17 laps) and drift back saving precious energy for later.I usually floated near the rear and only once put in a big effort to chase down a break.I don't think it would have been very easy to escape...hence no one did and I even thou I did jump on a couple of little breaks I never committed to them as they were not going to work.
So I waited ofr the sprint...but knew it wouldn't suit me...climb finishing about 600 meters out then into a very tight right hander and 100 meters to the line.Watched the finish of Div3 and watch a guy over cook it and end up in a ditch...breaking a 4000 euro frame!..ouch!!!.
But anyway I was sitting pretty on the last lap and in top 10 for the climb trying not to get boxed in and everyone was exploding around me...in a bad way.Guys were just blowing and sitting up on the climb...so once I finally saw clear air it was a bit late...I came into the last corner in 6th but had to slow down too much due to a rider in front and ended up being in too big a gear which I couldn't get on top of for the mini sprit to the line...so ended up 6th in my second Div2 race...will definatly win one soon when I get a sprint that suits me ...but then I am straight to Div1 .
Had a max wattage of 1172 and a 5 sec of 1043w but that wasn't in the sprint..was 8 minutes before the finish...so still don't know what I can top out at there.
15sec continous over 1000w for some reason at the hour mark..whoops.
15 times over 800w for 5secs or more
14 times over 500w for 30secs or more
Only 6 times did I spend more than 1 minute over 400w and only once did I spend more than 2 minutes over 400w
Shows it was a funny race!...at no time did I find it hard...but it did take a bit out of me.

What is Div1,2? Are you racing in Fance amateur division? What is your age?
Interesting race situation you described.
Seems to be like in my division in Germany Elite C, where everybody ends up being not enough better to get away frome the others.
So saver tactic is appropriate. Maybe Poker a little more next time, don´t go any of the attack attempts.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

What is this neuromuscular power? has it to do with the power enabled by creatine?

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... evels.aspx

[toolonglegs]

Hi McNute...yes France Amateur Div2...got upgraded from Div3 two races ago as I am new here...and if I win a Div2 race I go straight to Div1.
I am 40...tactically I am pretty good but I do get bored...and also would rather test myself a bit before going for a win...cause Div1 will be pretty difficult for me!.

[toolonglegs]

Stupid question...but while riding up Sestriere yesterday I was talking to this Aussie guy who was talking about his great power to weight ratio...and he said that you must take into account the weight of your bike as well!...that is not right is it?...maybe that is why he thought he had a great ratio.
So then I said see you at the top and rode away from him rather quickly with my not so good power to weight ratio...got to say dropping weight is making climbing a touch easier,but would have been nice to have compact cranks on for the last climb.
It seems that if I climb at 300W I can keep that up for hours on end....so I think that will be what I use a my sustainable / and enjoyable threshold for the etape...seems like I am being lazy at the start of a climb but after while it starts to feel like work

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Stupid question...but while riding up Sestriere yesterday I was talking to this Aussie guy who was talking about his great power to weight ratio...and he said that you must take into account the weight of your bike as well!...that is not right is it?...maybe that is why he thought he had a great ratio.
So then I said see you at the top and rode away from him rather quickly with my not so good power to weight ratio...got to say dropping weight is making climbing a touch easier,but would have been nice to have compact cranks on for the last climb.
It seems that if I climb at 300W I can keep that up for hours on end....so I think that will be what I use a my sustainable / and enjoyable threshold for the etape...seems like I am being lazy at the start of a climb but after while it starts to feel like work

From the point of view of assessing a rider's physiological attributes, you count body mass only.

From the point of view of assessing speed on a bike, then you also need to take into account mass of bike, rider, clothes and accessories.

[toolonglegs]

Thats what I thought...cheers.