Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

We have got it all wrong!

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1XLzCmPCGt/

I call BS to that France is much better for bicycle riders, at least in the areas where I normally ride, which are Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes and Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur. There are never any dramas for riders, the cars and truck drivers are all relaxed around riders.

There isn't really any massive cycling infrastructure as such, you just ride on the road and it's fine. And the people are just chilled out and relaxed. It's the opposite of Sydney where everyone is on-edge and ready to snap.

But hey, Wollongong is such a cycling mecca, it's a UCI bike city...

https://www.wollongong.nsw.gov.au/place ... /bike-city

I'd laugh if it wasn't so farcical.

This is the thing.

Bicycles are road vehicles.

Roads are bicycle infrastructure.

We shouldn't need bike specific infrastructure. Riding on the road needs to be fine.

We can't build separate infrastructure for bikes beside every road and we shouldn't be restricted to riding in the limited places where there is bicycle specific infrastructure. In any case, I prefer riding my road vehicle on the road.

DS

There are still some excellent off road cycleways that are far nicer than most roads. And if we had more of them and linked together, you’d see more people riding.

I still agree that roads should be safer for riding but forget about achieving that when even bicycle riders are against some of the measures to achieve it.

Like David I used to think separated cycleways were unnecessary, because from my perspective I have always ridden without them. But seeing the upswing in cycling in the Sydney CBD after their introduction, particularly people who wouldn't otherwise ride, changed my mind

To be clear, I don't think separated bicycle paths are necessary, or should be necessary. Not saying they are a bad thing, and if they encourage cycling they are a good thing. Just not necessary!

DS

I have no confidence in drivers improving, cycling on the road is always going to be more dangerous than dedicated cycle ways especially for higher speed roads. I'm comfortable cycling on the road but I do always get intrusive thoughts about inattentive drivers or drivers having medical issues.

The number one issue stopping people from cycling is not feeling safe, dedicated cycle paths help address this. They don't have to be down every road but aligning them in a trunk and feeder system is feasible, it may take slightly longer but if people feel safe they will use it. The Veloway in Brisbane is a good example, it runs for about 15km from Logan to the CBD and picks up thousands of riders daily feeding in from the surrounding suburbs.

Vehicular cycling is BS. A cute cult of people who preach but don’t really believe as it is polar to simple common sense.

This was correct back in 2010

https://copenhagenize.com/2010/07/vehic ... -sect.html

Calling them a Sect is cheeky, sure. But so many aspects of this group resemble a sect. They have a Guru or two, whom they seem to worship. There's *John Forester in the US and John Franklin, to a lesser extent, in the UK. Their numbers are few but they are noisy. They are aggressive. And their influence is destructive. The theory about Vehicular Cycling has been around for more than three decades. The reason that vehicular cycling can not be considered any more than a theory is quite simple. There is nowhere in the world where this theory has become practice and caused great numbers of citizens to take to the roads on a daily basis. It remains a theoretical manifesto for a fringe group of cyclists. They often refer to themselves as 'bicycle drivers'. Vroom Vroom. I asked a leading American bicycle advocate about vehicular cycling and he said, "They have had around 35 years to prove that it works. They haven't be able to. It's time to shelve the idea. "Vehicular cycling, in the countries where the theory is popular, has done little for mainstreaming urban cycling and reestablishing the bicycle as a feasible, accepted and respected transport form, as it used to be.

*John Forester "the father of vehicular cycling" who’s thinking set biking back decades - his quote around bike infra...

"Every facility for promoting cycling should be designed for 30 mph (48 km/h). If it is not, it will not attract the serious cyclist and hence it will not be an effective part of the transportation system. A facility that is designed only for childlike and incompetent cyclists encourages the 'toy bicycle' attitude and discourages cycling transportation."

https://web.archive.org/web/20210214041 ... ester.com/

TBH, I would rather send my family to go off cave diving than revert back to the days of a Sydney CBD without bike lanes.

Agreed the whole concept is preposterous.

I'm a fast cyclist and the few occasions I've been forced into 'vehicular' cycling have all ended poorly.

I seem to recall on here I posted footage or my lane ending downhill while I was doing 50km/hr+ and I indicated right to move into traffic doing 60km/hr. Only for a driver to completely refuse to give way to me, deliberately speed up and narrow pass by centimeters. Even some cyclists on here labelled me 'at fault' which is technically correct but there is literally no other way to approach that situation except stopping completely or spearing into a parked car.

If even other cyclists can't comprehend what you have to do to achieve 'vehicular cycling' we have absolutely no chance that drivers will.

The only way our rides will be safe is to be separated from traffic.

Even some cyclists on here labelled me 'at fault' which is technically correct but there is literally no other way to approach that situation except stopping completely or spearing into a parked car.

Now suppose a motorist said this in response to cutting off a cyclist.

am50em wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:13 pm

Even some cyclists on here labelled me 'at fault' which is technically correct but there is literally no other way to approach that situation except stopping completely or spearing into a parked car.

Now suppose a motorist said this in response to cutting off a cyclist.

Yeah, fair call. Though ever tried stopping a road bike downhill in about 20m from 50km/hr? My mistake here was relying on the slightest shred of human decency from a driver, which apparently was not forthcoming. At the point I realised it was not forthcoming I had no other choice, and he chose to then punishment pass me for after deliberately blocking me from doing anything else. For what it's worth I never actually left the shoulder, because he didn't let me leave the shoulder.

I made a mistake and I admit it. But the mistake was taking that section of road in the first place. I'm still not convinced there was any other way of approaching that situation short of riding on the footpath.

And that's the problem with vehicular cycling - drivers will deliberately force you into a maneouvre and then not recognise you as a vehicle when you try to do it. If you're in a car, indicating to merge from a decent speed from an ending lane people will generally let you in because there's consequences if they don't. On a bike they don't because essentially they have no consequences. Vehicular cycling doesn't work.

Sometimes you have to come to a stop whether driving a car or riding a bike; even when the other party should give way to you. Fundamental rule of driving/riding is to avoid collisions.
Too many people on the road don't want their progress impeded and will change lanes or turn even when they shouldn't.

I commuted to work by bike for over a decade in Sydney traffic. I took the lane (early) where appropriate (which was most of the time) and flowed with the traffic. I never expected other road users to let me in. No collisions. And when driving, I have the same zero expectations. If they do, then a wave of thanks but no expectation. In Sydney at least, this puts me in the minority.

Yep, no. I agree. It was an error of judgement to get in a situation in the first place where I had to rely on someone else giving way for my safety. Though I'm fairly sure he also deliberately sped up with contributed to the situation.

The problem with vehicular cycling is that at least cars see other cars and recognise them as something they should respect and give room. When they see cyclists they don't consistently do this. How many times have you been heading straight through a roundabout on a bicycle and someone just pulls out?

You can't be prepared for absolutely every situation, even if you assume everyone else is out to kill you. The only solution is separated bike paths.

The problem with vehicular cycling is that at least cars see other cars and recognise them as something they should respect and give room. When they see cyclists they don't consistently do this. How many times have you been heading straight through a roundabout on a bicycle and someone just pulls out?

You can't be prepared for absolutely every situation, even if you assume everyone else is out to kill you. The only solution is separated bike paths.

In Sydney they don't respect or give room irrespective of the vehicle you are in!!!

I assume the worst in other drivers and try to anticipate their moves. Mirror plus radar helps.
Separated bike paths would be great but unlikely there will ever be one just outside your front door. Just riding through the neighbourhood to a bike path can be fraught with danger.

One rider I follow on Strava rides in Denmark. I am often impressed with seeing the bike paths that run alongside quiet country roads in their photos. In Australia you'd be happy to ride on a road that was that quiet. Having a bike path would be heaven.

am50em wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:54 pm

One rider I follow on Strava rides in Denmark. I am often impressed with seeing the bike paths that run alongside quiet country roads in their photos. In Australia you'd be happy to ride on a road that was that quiet. Having a bike path would be heaven.

I'm confined to my gravel bike at the moment so essentially just training on bike paths, with only a few kilometres of road between them.

It is so nice. Brisbane is not fantastic for bike paths, but between the V1 Veloway, Bicentennial Bikeway, Bulimba Creek Bikeway and Kedron Brook you can rack up a solid 70-100km rarely seeing the road. It's not as fast and there's no massive hills, but I can definitely see myself training that way in the future.

Pretty much every cyclist just wants to go out without the fear it'll be their last ride. It's all very well and good to talk about 'vehicular cycling' and that we have as much right to be on the road as anyone, but all it takes is one moron, and it's not as if they're getting any rarer.

I am 101 days out of a busted leg surgery and sat on a bike for the first time yesterday.

The odd thing is after 9 weeks of not driving, getting back in control of the car was an all round nasty experience.
You realise just how toxic the roads are – my take is all drivers consider themselves to be way better at controlling around a tonne of metal than they are.
Luckily, I have a pretty good bike network to shops and amenities so I can avoid driving and start my re-biking off the road and feel pretty safe for a while to come. Longer rides will be back on minor roads and then mainly dirt.

My call is like the National Bowel Cancer Screening Program...
https://www.health.gov.au/our-work/nati ... ng-program
This program aims to reduce deaths from bowel cancer by detecting early signs of the disease. If found early, more than 90% of cases can be successfully treated. Eligible Australians aged 45 to 74 can do a free test at home every 2 years.

We should offer and then encourage people of all ages to sit a free driving test every few years.
The risk of a nasty car prang to the community must be/ could be /dunno really higher than Bowel Cancer so why not make resiting a driving test something to be proud of?

I started driving (on farm) before I was ten but didn't get my licence till 22 as I preferred biking- can still reverse a b double in the dark over a cattle grid but I also do silly things like drive in fog that risks other people on the road and I am not proud of that.

What I do know, is I know the unknowns of my understanding of all the road rules in NSW. But when I cross a border any border all these change and this is really my fault for not keeping fully informed.
I also wouldn't mind failing a driving retest as it would build confidence that many other drivers are just rubbish.

Oh, I got my NBC testing kit in the mail yesterday so that made me think and I hope I won't fail that test...

I think they should make people with a large number of demerit points or cause crashes be retested annually until they stop racking up points or causing crashes.

baabaa wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:56 pm

I am 101 days out of a busted leg surgery and sat on a bike for the first time yesterday.

Congrats.

AndrewCowley wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:10 am

baabaa wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:56 pm

I am 101 days out of a busted leg surgery and sat on a bike for the first time yesterday.

Congrats.

And how are you holding up?

Thanks fellas - lucky enough I have a clay surfaced greyhound track close by that is well flat, round, away from traffic and is ideal to do slow laps on.
So far so good but only on the single speed as it is my only bike with flat pedals.
The orthopaedic gave me the big tick for biking last week but suggested that I may need to have the hardware taken out after six months as my leg/ ankle vs plate, wires and screws have no fat and they stick out. Hope my bike shoes dont rub or will be using cycling sandals...

Got to say our health system works very well but bouncing around the system is quite a journey and testing if you have never been sick or injured.
So keep best keep safe and try and avoid it peoples!!

Hope you heal well too BaaBaa.

Good points made about our driving attitudes in this country.

baabaa wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:56 pm

I am 101 days out of a busted leg surgery and sat on a bike for the first time yesterday.

The odd thing is after 9 weeks of not driving, getting back in control of the car was an all round nasty experience.

I rode the motorcycle for the first time in ages the other week and I agree... traffic is hell! Clogged up roads, idiots with no clue. It felt like it took ages to get anywhere with all the stop/start. Not to mention needing eyes in your arse!

Zebee
- who is a law abiding motorcyclist meaning no kerbside lanesplitting. Which is a right pain of a law to obey let me tell you!

[/quote]

warthog1 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:16 pm

Hope you heal well too BaaBaa.

Good points made about our driving attitudes in this country.

Thks Warty!
Yes, kinda been thinking what we have been doing in the past is just not working. It all seems to circle around getting away with it be it speeding, changing lanes, giving space to other... The police could be doing other simple things that need doing

Just how do you get more people to want to be better all round road users? My feeling from this place is that most people do the best they can when they get behind the wheel but we just end up managing our ever decreasing expectations.

Prolly not the spot to chat about it, but raised the cost of living and high helmet fines with the local state MP- he gets it and as the community of the whole is quite pro biking, he agrees it could be a window in time to considers to change things toward a national parity on fines.
He is also an old obstetrician so he tends toward the status quo of his community's safety and the laws as he has a large and wide group of local kiddies who he has brought into the world. He does want them to be safe and healthy and does consider that the more they bike, the slower the community drives around them and importantly, gives space to both young and them other people who they see on bike.

Short story is he understood that the cost of living is a good excuse to try to reduce the big fines down. He also agrees that hefty fines do little to help build road fellowship and when kiddies bike more they also become more space aware and possibly better drivers than when bundled in the back of a parents car to drive three blocks to a pals place to just hang out.....

Dunno I will keep pondering, but would like to get something around community biking and road fellowship out to the teals and independents so they can have a very simple basket of pro bicycle policies that says blah blah blah...positive things around biking in Aust - hopefully some chit chat will then link in with the other indis for some sort of simple common policy of supporting the good things that are happening in local bike communities before the next rounds of states and finger crossed federal elections.

Bike Bugs have been culled due public liability issues but the work many of them did is now showing results.

Grrr, I really miss the potential that the Australian Cyclists Party had...

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:36 am

And how are you holding up?

Ok thanks. My leg is starting to feel better. Still a long way to go.

Don’t know what I will get back to yet. Trying go keep an open mind.

Howdo Andrew - sorry missed any info on this - to save me hunting down the details where should I look? ( or even better a link)
Putting up as much good healing moral as possible!