Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

Biggest issue I have is that I often buy milk (plus other things if I need to) on the way home from work, that's maybe 1.25 KG in a returnable glass bottle. Add to that the clothes and a book to read at lunchtime and a pannier really is the only solution. I have a pair of work shoes, they never leave work, and I use a desktop at work.

The irony I have at the moment is that the flatbar is a fair bit lighter than the drop bar - the drop bar is steel.

The flat bar will soon be replaced by a very swish titanium road bike which will get a rack and mudguards, I may be about to ride a swish bike but most of my riding will still be commuting (like 98% probably until I retire).

Interesting observations about panniers. I have never wanted to have a pack on my back while riding, I want the bike to carry the weight. I started with a basket on the back and chucked a bag in it, moved on to panniers. I really can't see how panniers are that much of a drag issue, as someone observed above, your leg is in front of it. Plus, let's face it, the least aerodynamic thing on a bike is the rider.

Might have a quick look at the options for a trunk bag on top of a rack. I can get a Tubus Airy titanium rack which only weighs 233g, not sure what the mudguards will weigh, but the amount of crap I put in the pannier sort of offsets this, not to mention my own weight which would be at least 90Kg.

Lots of trade offs but queeqeg's titanium bike sounds like similar to what I am trying to achieve, what titanium rack do you have? Do you run a pannier on it? I only run 1 pannier which is plenty and unless it really is loaded up have no issues with handling.

DS

find_bruce wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:41 pm

And how many seconds do you save? I'm guessing about 5 minutes

My commute time variability is dominated by my luck with the umpteen traffic lights.

The wind, on the other hand, tend to either help or hinder the whole way. Usually hinder

An ebike or a motorbike would make it faster

OnTrackZeD wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:30 pm

An ebike or a motorbike would make it faster

So would a train, on track. (Bad pun, sorry)

An e-bike would help on the hills :-p but “fast commute” implies an average speed around the 25kph cut off speed. ie one’s “cruising” pace is then another few kph higher.

I think if I was still doing 32km each way e-assist for the hill-before-home would be welcome, particularly on a headwindy day when I’m coming down with something. (Why do they always go together?)

That's why I loved commuting on a Canyon Ultimate CF Evo. It was a light, fast bike so even on the days when I felt crap it wasn't a huge slog to get back home. Even up steep hills (which there was a couple) I could just go in granny gear and spin up them.

Aside from that it was so comfortable to ride as well. Excellent saddle and the seat post really took the edge out of bumps (which there were many). It wasn't intended as a commuter bike but it worked out fine. I must have done 28,000km on that bike and it still looks brand new today. That one will never be sold, ever. They were hardly ever seen back in the time and now even more uncommon.

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

I really can't see how panniers are that much of a drag issue, as someone observed above, your leg is in front of it. Plus, let's face it, the least aerodynamic thing on a bike is the rider.

I couldn't see it either, since the wind is invisible. but I certainly felt it, especially in the summer nor'easters. The panniers' semi-box-like shape made their presence felt, even though my legs were messing up the air in front of them. My response is that the bike riders' legs aren't going to shield them anywhere near fully from the passing airflow.

I did find, though, that the larger cross-sectional bulk they present visually seemed to mean I was more readily seen.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:50 pm

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

I really can't see how panniers are that much of a drag issue, as someone observed above, your leg is in front of it. Plus, let's face it, the least aerodynamic thing on a bike is the rider.

I couldn't see it either, since the wind is invisible. but I certainly felt it, especially in the summer nor'easters. The panniers' semi-box-like shape made their presence felt, even though my legs were messing up the air in front of them. My response is that the bike riders' legs aren't going to shield them anywhere near fully from the passing airflow.

I did find, though, that the larger cross-sectional bulk they present visually seemed to mean I was more readily seen.

You probably need to be in a wind-tunnel with the smoke trails to see how the air flows, but as motor racing shows sometimes unlikely modifications have surprising aerodynamic improvements and things that would seem obvious have a negative effect.

Look at the extensions at the back of the Porsche 935/77 bodywork - they extend straight out at 90º angle to the normal bodywork. And they improve the aerodynamics, despite looking like they'd do the opposite.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Museum.jpg (see extensions to the rear bodywork)

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:18 pm

That's why I loved commuting on a Canyon Ultimate CF Evo. It was a light, fast bike so even on the days when I felt crap it wasn't a huge slog to get back home. Even up steep hills (which there was a couple) I could just go in granny gear and spin up them.

Same when I use my Cervelo R5 to commute on. It's not so much that it's a fast bike but rather it's so much easier on your legs when you are commuting 5 days a week. It carries so much more speed up inclines and instead of using that to go faster, you can instead save a lot energy.

This is where I don't really understand the modern day preference for aero over weight.

AndrewCowley wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:36 pm

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:18 pm

That's why I loved commuting on a Canyon Ultimate CF Evo. It was a light, fast bike so even on the days when I felt crap it wasn't a huge slog to get back home. Even up steep hills (which there was a couple) I could just go in granny gear and spin up them.

Same when I use my Cervelo R5 to commute on. It's not so much that it's a fast bike but rather it's so much easier on your legs when you are commuting 5 days a week. It carries so much more speed up inclines and instead of using that to go faster, you can instead save a lot energy.

This is where I don't really understand the modern day preference for aero over weight.

So true, when the legs are stuffed it's just nice to be able to grab an easy gear and spin with low power and not be crawling along.

The Canyon had all bearings ceramic, bottom bracket as well - even on alloy wheels it was just a really effortless thing to ride if you commute every day quite large distances. Now I don't take that Canyon out anywhere - it cannot be replaced - it's a thing you'd put on display.

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:06 pm

Look at the extensions at the back of the Porsche 935/77 bodywork - they extend straight out at 90º angle to the normal bodywork. And they improve the aerodynamics, despite looking like they'd do the opposite.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Museum.jpg (see extensions to the rear bodywork)

Ah, the Gurney Flap. I've used that with excellent effect on many an on-road R/C race car, usually on an adjustable trim tab on the rear wing or air dam.

But using it at the side makes sense too, especially if the entire rear of the vehicle is shaped like a giant diffuser. A slight drag penalty, but disproportionate gains in downforce mean drag reducing measures can be adopted elsewhere, or the downforce can be left as is for better cornering speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurney_flap

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:06 pm

Look at the extensions at the back of the Porsche 935/77 bodywork - they extend straight out at 90º angle to the normal bodywork. And they improve the aerodynamics, despite looking like they'd do the opposite.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Museum.jpg (see extensions to the rear bodywork)

Is that for aerodynamics or simply to increase down-force to improve road-holding & traction ? With most race cars, it is the latter.

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

Might have a quick look at the options for a trunk bag on top of a rack. I can get a Tubus Airy titanium rack which only weighs 233g, not sure what the mudguards will weigh, but the amount of crap I put in the pannier sort of offsets this, not to mention my own weight which would be at least 90Kg.

DS

I have a titanium tubus airy on my bike. It weighs 350g, by far the lightest rack. It is quite narrow at the top. That is good, in that it gets the panniers in closer behind you, more aero. However, it is very narrow on top, not really suitable for a trunk type bag. Also only has one rail, not a second lower one like lots of racks

Full front and rear mudguards are around 500-600g, depending on type.

Andy01 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:15 pm

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:06 pm

Look at the extensions at the back of the Porsche 935/77 bodywork - they extend straight out at 90º angle to the normal bodywork. And they improve the aerodynamics, despite looking like they'd do the opposite.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Museum.jpg (see extensions to the rear bodywork)

Is that for aerodynamics or simply to increase down-force to improve road-holding & traction ? With most race cars, it is the latter.

It actually improved the drag co-efficient also, though Porsche's rivals puzzled how that could be. Also notice the two rear windows. That was a loop hole. Rules said the original rear window must be retained, but nothing specifically said you couldn't put another one on top of it - so that's what they did. Far more convenient for aerodynamics. I suspect the scrutineers were less than pleased.

Another example of Norbert Singer "interpreteering" as I heard it described.

The pictured car is the 1425cc "Baby" 935/2.0 (built to the 2.0 litre rule) to race against the Capri Turbo. It was very experimental. The conventional 935/77 with the bigger engine also had similar bodywork solutions.

Aero often works in unexpected ways, so with the panniers on a bike feeling as though they slow things down, it might well that they mess up the air flow.

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:06 pm

You probably need to be in a wind-tunnel with the smoke trails to see how the air flows, but as motor racing shows sometimes unlikely modifications have surprising aerodynamic improvements and things that would seem obvious have a negative effect.

I used to have a touring bike, with dropbars, but a quite high bar position. When I put an ortlieb handlebar bag on the front, it used to roll noticeably quicker, where you would think it would be less aerodynamic. I think it was acting like a fairing, covering up all the messy tangle of brake and gear cables in front of the handlebars. Also because of the height, when I went on the drops I could pretty much tuck my head almost behind it, and it was probably making air flow around my body more smoothly. So yes, sometimes things can have surprising results.

If I put the same bag on my current touring bike, with a more aggressive riding position, I don't seem to get the same effect, because it is lower

robbo mcs wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:36 pm

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:06 pm

You probably need to be in a wind-tunnel with the smoke trails to see how the air flows, but as motor racing shows sometimes unlikely modifications have surprising aerodynamic improvements and things that would seem obvious have a negative effect.

I used to have a touring bike, with dropbars, but a quite high bar position. When I put an ortlieb handlebar bag on the front, it used to roll noticeably quicker, where you would think it would be less aerodynamic. I think it was acting like a fairing, covering up all the messy tangle of brake and gear cables in front of the handlebars. Also because of the height, when I went on the drops I could pretty much tuck my head almost behind it, and it was probably making air flow around my body more smoothly. So yes, sometimes things can have surprising results.

If I put the same bag on my current touring bike, with a more aggressive riding position, I don't seem to get the same effect, because it is lower

Maybe, my Canyon was very clean on the front, because it fortunately had wireless SRAM Red E-Tap (old 11 speed):

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fxP ... pRj-X2.jpg

It only had two brake cables, nothing else. I've also ridden the Canyon Aeroad CF SLX (a top spec Mavic support bike on deep Mavic carbon wheels) and it didn't seem any faster even down big descents. So whatever Canyon did with the CF Evo, it was a decently fast bike everywhere. It was a good all round bike, it did everything well, commuting with backpacks no problem at all and it did that daily for a long time.

The Giant TCR Advanced SL1 I rode before it also had E-Tap (retrofitted) and some pretty clever cable management (non standard) but it was never as quick.

robbo mcs wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:30 pm

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

Might have a quick look at the options for a trunk bag on top of a rack. I can get a Tubus Airy titanium rack which only weighs 233g, not sure what the mudguards will weigh, but the amount of crap I put in the pannier sort of offsets this, not to mention my own weight which would be at least 90Kg.

DS

I have a titanium tubus airy on my bike. It weighs 350g, by far the lightest rack. It is quite narrow at the top. That is good, in that it gets the panniers in closer behind you, more aero. However, it is very narrow on top, not really suitable for a trunk type bag. Also only has one rail, not a second lower one like lots of racks

Full front and rear mudguards are around 500-600g, depending on type.

Thanks for that, I did see that you can't put a trunk bag on a Tubus Airy which is the one I have been looking at. I think I'll wait until I get the bike to make sure I can fit it. I like the idea that the pannier is closer to being blocked by me.

DS

robbo mcs wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:36 pm

g-boaf wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:06 pm

You probably need to be in a wind-tunnel with the smoke trails to see how the air flows, but as motor racing shows sometimes unlikely modifications have surprising aerodynamic improvements and things that would seem obvious have a negative effect.

I used to have a touring bike, with dropbars, but a quite high bar position. When I put an ortlieb handlebar bag on the front, it used to roll noticeably quicker, where you would think it would be less aerodynamic. I think it was acting like a fairing, covering up all the messy tangle of brake and gear cables in front of the handlebars. Also because of the height, when I went on the drops I could pretty much tuck my head almost behind it, and it was probably making air flow around my body more smoothly. So yes, sometimes things can have surprising results.

If I put the same bag on my current touring bike, with a more aggressive riding position, I don't seem to get the same effect, because it is lower

This fits with what Jan Heine was quoted as talking about by someone else earlier in the thread. Super interesting, but I can't be bothered investing in that solution.

Well for today's commute I changed the handlebars. They used to have 3cm of spacers underneath and the stem was flipped up. I slammed the stem and flipped it down, and lo and behold the commute was way more fun haha. My unscientific testing showed I was faster by maybe 1kph over the day, which isn't bad for a free change.

Perhaps the next step is to commute in SPD shoes with dual sided pedals rather than flats? Hrmm...

cyclingnolycra wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm

Perhaps the next step is to commute in SPD shoes with dual sided pedals rather than flats? Hrmm...

God yeah! At least if you've got any climbs to get up

That's the place I notice the difference between flats and SPD - along with really slow speed work. Those are the only times I "pull up" on the pedals.

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

...

Might have a quick look at the options for a trunk bag on top of a rack. I can get a Tubus Airy titanium rack which only weighs 233g, not sure what the mudguards will weigh, but the amount of crap I put in the pannier sort of offsets this, not to mention my own weight which would be at least 90Kg.

Lots of trade offs but queeqeg's titanium bike sounds like similar to what I am trying to achieve, what titanium rack do you have? Do you run a pannier on it? I only run 1 pannier which is plenty and unless it really is loaded up have no issues with handling.

DS

I am running the Tubus Airy Ti rack on my Ti bike (Lynskey Cooper CX), along with SKS Chromoplastic Longboard mudguards. I have Ortleib Backroller Plus pannier bags, which fit perfectly on the Airy rack (you need to adjust the position of the hooks as far as they go, at least with my big feet!).
I do not have any handling issues carrying just the one pannier bag, even when it is stuffed full of crap. Consider that the rider is a bigger object to catch the wind than a pannier bag which is slung slow over the rear wheel.
Last year I did the Sydney to Newcastle Overnight. It was bucketing down rain pretty much the entire night. I rode it on my commuter bike with the pannier bags with a change of clothes as I was intending to also ride back to Sydney, but the weather got even worse in the morning so instead I had a hot shower at the Oceans Baths, using the towel I had taken with me and changed into dry kit and caught the train home instead.
I have done this a few times in fact, acting as the pack mule for everyone else in our riding ground as they stuff my bags full of crap trying to slow me down. I had one cheeky rider grab onto my rack going up Mt White and getting a bit of a tow!

cyclingnolycra wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:01 pm

Well for today's commute I changed the handlebars. They used to have 3cm of spacers underneath and the stem was flipped up. I slammed the stem and flipped it down, and lo and behold the commute was way more fun haha. My unscientific testing showed I was faster by maybe 1kph over the day, which isn't bad for a free change.

Perhaps the next step is to commute in SPD shoes with dual sided pedals rather than flats? Hrmm...

I went from flats to dual sided SPD pedals primarily as I was commuting in all weather, and my feet would slip off the flats. I initially was riding with MTB style shoes, which themselves quiet heavy (but great for walking in!). I then moved onto the Shimano RT range of shows (Road Touring) where the shoe is more of a Road shoe, but has the recessed SPD cleats. Was on the RT-82 version for a while, now I have some XC300 gravel shoes and a pair of Slip on road shoes with reflective elements on them (can't recall the model). I like these as they are suited to walking normally, and in the case of the gravel ones doing lots of hike a bike

I have a Merida Silex that I used to commute and it does the trick nicely. I am not sure if it's been mentioned, but Gravel bikes seem to be popular at the moment for all road/commuting.

I think someone mentioned a Norco Search earlier? Good shout.

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

a book to read at lunchtime and a pannier really is the only solution

There is a Kindle app for iOS and Android which would save you lugging a book

Retrobyte wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:21 pm

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

a book to read at lunchtime and a pannier really is the only solution

There is a Kindle app for iOS and Android which would save you lugging a book

Reading books on a phone/pc etc is nothing like a book. An e-reader though is not a bad compromise.

cyclingnolycra wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:52 pm

Reading books on a phone/pc etc is nothing like a book. An e-reader though is not a bad compromise.

I agree with the experience of a book vs screen. But indeed, e-readers are pretty light and compact these days.

queequeg wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:46 pm

DavidS wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am

...

Might have a quick look at the options for a trunk bag on top of a rack. I can get a Tubus Airy titanium rack which only weighs 233g, not sure what the mudguards will weigh, but the amount of crap I put in the pannier sort of offsets this, not to mention my own weight which would be at least 90Kg.

Lots of trade offs but queeqeg's titanium bike sounds like similar to what I am trying to achieve, what titanium rack do you have? Do you run a pannier on it? I only run 1 pannier which is plenty and unless it really is loaded up have no issues with handling.

DS

I am running the Tubus Airy Ti rack on my Ti bike (Lynskey Cooper CX), along with SKS Chromoplastic Longboard mudguards. I have Ortleib Backroller Plus pannier bags, which fit perfectly on the Airy rack (you need to adjust the position of the hooks as far as they go, at least with my big feet!).
I do not have any handling issues carrying just the one pannier bag, even when it is stuffed full of crap. Consider that the rider is a bigger object to catch the wind than a pannier bag which is slung slow over the rear wheel.
Last year I did the Sydney to Newcastle Overnight. It was bucketing down rain pretty much the entire night. I rode it on my commuter bike with the pannier bags with a change of clothes as I was intending to also ride back to Sydney, but the weather got even worse in the morning so instead I had a hot shower at the Oceans Baths, using the towel I had taken with me and changed into dry kit and caught the train home instead.
I have done this a few times in fact, acting as the pack mule for everyone else in our riding ground as they stuff my bags full of crap trying to slow me down. I had one cheeky rider grab onto my rack going up Mt White and getting a bit of a tow!

Sounds so much like what I am planning, an Auren Ti bike, Tubus Airy titanium, I am thinking of the Velo Orange alloy mudguards and continue to use the Ortleib pannier. I run 2 bikes so I will try and find a similar but cheaper rack for the steel frame bike I will continue to ride every second day, I used to get sick of adjusting the bottom hook on the Ortleib every day when I had different racks on the 2 bikes I now ride.

This all sounds good.

On another topic, I really don't find the idea of an e-reader very appealing at all, I like my books. So much so that we have about 2.5-3 thousand of them here. My partner does have an e-reader but she travels a fair bit, and she owns most of the books too. Did I mention the 1,500 odd records I have? Yeah, something about physical media I like! Just hope I don't turn into a hoarder when I get even older.

DS