War on cars

[fat and old]

We also need to stop the sports-driven fetishisation of cycling-as-suffering-in-funny-clothes (there's got to be a better word but I can nae think of it. Snobby talks about this here).

I’m not sure about the word, but wouldn’t a less confrontational way to put it be

We also need to make jumping on the bike to go down the shop/go to the train station/go to the park/go to work an everyday occurrence, not something we approach with thoughts of “will I be alright today”?

Frankly I’m surprised at the tone of that sentence. Since when does the acceptance of one group have to come at the denigration of another?

[mikesbytes]

So how to get the general community to appreciate those who cycle?

Get the general community cycling.

While that looks and sounds trite, it's what is needed

Yes, we all agree on that. If 30% of the population cycled to work there would be facilities galore but 29% of Sydney's population isn't bike commuting largely due to the lack of facilities and because only 1% does there's no desire to build it. AKA the chicken and the egg.

When the Epping bike path was planned to go in the NRMA at that time objected strongly sighting that there were only 25 cyclists a day on Epping rd and those who knew Epping rd at that time knows dam well why there were so few

[opik_bidin]

So how to get the general community to appreciate those who cycle?

Get the general community cycling.

While that looks and sounds trite, it's what is needed

Yes, we all agree on that. If 30% of the population cycled to work there would be facilities galore but 29% of Sydney's population isn't bike commuting largely due to the lack of facilities and because only 1% does there's no desire to build it. AKA the chicken and the egg.

When the Epping bike path was planned to go in the NRMA at that time objected strongly sighting that there were only 25 cyclists a day on Epping rd and those who knew Epping rd at that time knows dam well why there were so few

https://twitter.com/brenttoderian/statu ... 04?lang=en
When asked "are bike lanes warranted here," remember Its hard to justify a bridge by the # of people swimming across a river. -@jacquelyn_hg

What is the vision? How much people you want cycling? 30%? then give the space required for 30% of your population cycling, Give the budget to do it. Make the bike lanes connecting places people want to go

Too often the vision doesn't match the budget. The transportation budget, the space, the lanes are mostly for private motorised vehicles. Change the budget percentage, take some parking spaces, take some lanes.

[opik_bidin]

The Psychology of Why Cyclists Enrage Car Drivers

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2013021 ... e-cyclists

I don't think it is quite right

Who pays for on street parking?
Who pays for the Motorway?
Who pays for the tolls cashback?
Who pays for the parking?
Who pays for the road and street damage?
Who pays for business closing?
Who pays for urban sprawl? new piping, new lines, new trash service, new hospitals, new schools, etc....
etc...

By measuring the space, weight, pressure, energy, money, health, pollution, and environmental impact of cycling, its actually cyclig people that pay more of the share and bear the worst brunt.

On the road, Cyclists weight less and impact of their braking would't damage the road too much, they take less space, they don't block lanes like on street parking
They can't use the motorways, they don't receive parking and toll cashbacks
They make side street shops more pleasant

and with Cycleways connecting the city, the city can take much more people without adding cars and roads. Adding houses ad services. This means cutting environment destruction of urban sprawl. So no need for new power lines, pipig, roads, etc.

So, people who got free on street parking, given toll cashbacks, free office parking, destroy the roads more and eats most of the transportation budget then become angry that cyclists don't pay. That is not right, it's laughable

[Thoglette]

Frankly I’m surprised at the tone of that sentence.

As I said, I couldn't think of anything more politically correct at the time.

Since when does the acceptance of one group have to come at the denigration of another?

Agreed. Unfortunately that's the state of cycling in Australia: if it's not competitive it's not to be taken seriously.

Deluded, I know. But what can you expect from groups that base their policy statements on advice from Raphael Grzebieta and Jake Olivier?

There was a whole thread on this topic (the systemic prejudice in organised and semi-organised cycling) about a month ago,

[fat and old]

Deluded, I know. But what can you expect from groups that base their policy statements on advice from Raphael Grzebieta and Jake Olivier?

Pretty much the same as I expect from groups that base their policy statements on studies by Rissel and Voukelatos

Not that those two you referred to deserve anything other than mild contempt; again much the same as Rissel and Voukelatos. Notwithstanding that, nor the older thread, I don't see any ideas on how to work against this issue. Not from any side. Just cheap shots and snarky comments. United we stand, divided we fall and all that...…..

[opik_bidin]

Memes again


so Appropriate for West Connex, Sydney will lose the Anzac Bridge Cycleway, alog with other cycleways along the route. it destroys the inner west Area for the cars from suburbs in the west to come in to the CBD.

[opik_bidin]

[opik_bidin]

[opik_bidin]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonrei ... 0079f955a7

Twenty million anonymized transactions were analyzed by the bank and Madrid city council, and it was discovered that the decision to limit road access to the city center by motorists led to a 9.5% increase in retail takings on Madrid’s main shopping street, the Gran Vía.

[fat and old]

Interesting. I’ve been discussing this with my wife, a born and bred Madrileno, and our friends who are here with us on the long w/e atm. Both Spanish born Australians recently returned after 5 months back “home”.

Retail was up in the major Spanish cities between 2.5 and 4% over the same period given. The roads in central Madrid are not closed to people who are using off street parking. Madrid is serviced by an excellent metro system of rail, few people travel by car to shop in the first place. The major shopping areas such as the Gran Via are malls, there is no or only one way traffic.

Reid seems to be misrepresenting a good policy re air pollution for his own purposes without presenting all of the facts.

As per usual, I don’t actually disagree with the policy. Only the use of statistics collected as a result.

[grimbo]

I thought this subject might be about the excellent "War on Cars" podcast https://thewaroncars.org/. For those who may be interested, it is very American (New York) focused, but also has a fair amount of crossover with Australia in regard to driver, police, media and bureaucracy attitudes.

[opik_bidin]

[brumby33]

I'm not a strong advocate of this climate change thing everyone keeps harping on about but I do believe we can do so much better for the environment.....but we're not quite up to the technological advancement quite yet to be totally independent of fossil fuels but we are getting a lot closer. Even the coal powered power stations that Japan, India and China are a lot cleaner than the old ones we have as it gets more out of a clump of coal than before which leaves little waste by comparison.

The Auto Industry is one that has cleaned up it's act over the past 4 decades with the introduction of unleaded fuel, then much better fuel distribution using fuel injection and electronic fuel controls, most cars today have at least 5-8 speed variable auto gearboxes which burn less fuel per km, aerodynamics plays a big part too....now theres the technology to begin producing electric cars which can go further on a charge like the Tesla...fantastic piece of engineering and it doesn't look too half bad and as a bus driver in Sydney, I'm beginning to see much more.

I also believe that within the next 10 years, you'll see that most public transport such as buses will run on electric power as apposed to diesel and for a city environment, that is well worth looking forward to. Almost all buses doing the Sydney city services have to meet the Euro 4 and 5 criteria and is why we run Euro buses like Volvo, Scania & Mercedes as they are built to meet these targets. Each bus has a service life of 25 years on average.

It's not all about the climate, the climate is always changing, one year we have a hot summer, then a wet winter, a cold winter and a mild Humid Summer but I believe there many other things that determine this such as sunspot activity etc.

America just had it's coldest Winter in many decades while Australia had one of the hottest on record...but there's been hot stinking days in Australia before this and even long before European settlement.

There's so many other pollutants we have to clear-up before we can eradicate fossils fuels....plastic, also made from fossil fuels is a bigger menace than we humans ever anticipated, and humans themselves are such slobs when it comes to litter.

I think once motorcars and trucks can go long distances on electric power, there'll be a huge change in the way we travel but I don't think i'll see it in my lifetime but i'll get to see the beginning of a life with reduced fossil fuels.

Don't know how they're going to power aircraft without fossil fuels but i'm sure they'll find a way.

I see more people embracing the E-Bikes and Cities closing off sections of cities to accommodate pedestrian and cycling, gathering areas, play areas for kids etc and keeping the car out.
I see more positive movements to encourage people to be active,you can already see it, more people now are into health foods, gyms, exercise, outdoor activities, less people smoking...I think a change for the better.
I reckon the Federal Government done a good thing overall by pushing up the price of ciggies to the point many people are realising their habit isn't worth the cost....happened with me...at first I cursed the Gov but now I thank them as I was able to give them up....best thing I ever did.

More has to be done to persuade businesses to provide opportunities for active transport to and from work....my workplace is great for this, we either have the opportunity to use public transport, bicycle, car & motorcycle and has areas within the worksite to store or park such modes, we have showers, lots of lockers, mealroom with cooking facilities, commercial sized fridges, we have a good athletic club that have running races throughout the year inter depots and even though we've been broken away from the Government buses, our Institute ( Social and sporting club) keeps us all together....so yeah while the job can be tough at times pushing buses through the city, work environment ain't too shabby....so many other places need to introduce incentives for those who want to use active transport to get to work.

The power sector is one of the key election issues coming up in the next election, each side wanting renewables but they need baseline power in the meantime until technology catches up.....I'm a strong believer in nuclear energy because for the size of the mineral, it's far being the most energy dense mineral on the planet, we here in Australia have about 60% of the worlds nuclear product and when used in power stations, it's totally carbon neutral.
Yes Japan and Russia had issues with nuclear, power and it's not to be messed around with but for pound on pound, it's the cheapest mineral we can use and tenfold more productive than coal. Japan would've been ok only for the massive earthquake and Tsunami, their power stations were made to withstand over 8 on the reichter scale where the Fukushima plants were subject to a historic 9. But these power stations were also 40 years old, were about to be retired and shutdown the year after the earthquake hit. Don't remember back much about kernobal without googling it's history but they can make more stronger, safer nuclear power stations these days, even smaller ones and we don't have major Earthquake issues in Australia...a few tremors here n there apart from Newcastle in 89 but most of Newcastle is undermined...tunnels everywhere underneath most parts of the Hunter region.

There'll always be those who'll never give up the car but if we can keep getting larger percentages of people to try other methods and limiting the use of cars, people may realise why they didn't try it before.

I've had people say to me that bicycles are such an outdated way of getting around....I tell them, well maybe with the old single speed bikes of the past but with so much technology that's gone into cycling these days, they are a totally different machine to ride...we even have battery powered pushies....before you can either ride a mans or ladies bike, yeah they are still around but we also have mountain bikes, racing bikes, commuting bikes, touring bikes and up to 30 gears...interested?? lol

brumby33

[rkelsen]

Even the coal powered power stations that Japan, India and China are a lot cleaner than the old ones we have as it gets more out of a clump of coal than before which leaves little waste by comparison.

The power station itself is one thing. The quality of the coal going into it is another.

The coal that we have in the Latrobe Valley is brown coal, called Lignite. This is the lowest grade of coal, because of its low energy density and high moisture content. Its high moisture content makes it heavy and uneconomical to transport.

The Hazelwood power plant used Lignite coal, and was "allegedly" the least efficient power plant on the planet in terms of carbon dioxide emissions per megawatt generated.

The coal fired power stations in Japan, India and China use anthracite. This type of coal is able to burn more efficiently due to its low moisture content and higher concentration of carbon.

[brumby33]

Even the coal powered power stations that Japan, India and China are a lot cleaner than the old ones we have as it gets more out of a clump of coal than before which leaves little waste by comparison.

The power station itself is one thing. The quality of the coal going into it is another.

The coal that we have in the Latrobe Valley is brown coal, called Lignite. This is the lowest grade of coal, because of its low energy density and high moisture content. Its high moisture content makes it heavy and uneconomical to transport.

The Hazelwood power plant used Lignite coal, and was "allegedly" the least efficient power plant on the planet in terms of carbon dioxide emissions per megawatt generated.

The coal fired power stations in Japan, India and China use anthracite. This type of coal is able to burn more efficiently due to its low moisture content and higher concentration of carbon.

Yeah I don't profess I know much about the in and outs of coal but I know there's brown coal and black coal. Thermal coal is the type found usually around the Hunter valley and is used for coal powered generators for it's steaming capabilities.

I'm concerned with Australia moving away from coal is what will that do to our industry, what will that do for employment ....I understand whilst there's overseas export demand we should be ok....but that's not always to be counted on....China has put on temporary bans of Australian coal at present....not sure how long that'll be on for.

[Thoglette]

I'm concerned with Australia moving away from coal is what will that do to our industry, what will that do for employment ....

In short, bugger all.

What's killing "industry" (around power) is a lack of bankable policy and a corrupted price setting regime. Those with cashare going DIY.

Right now, today, according to Snowy Hydro, you buy get long term renewables more cheaply ($40) than the coal you need to burn ($56) never mind the payback on the capital costs of super-duper "clean" plant or the cost of dealing with the heavy metals, sulphur and ash it produces.

And all this without mentioning the 'C' word.

This won't stop the likes of the Minerals Council’s favourite modellers, Brian Fisher, making all sorts of claims to the contrary. (Remember, tobacco didn't cause cancer either, according to industry)

[human909]

I'm concerned with Australia moving away from coal is what will that do to our industry, what will that do for employment ....

Employment always works itself out. Otherwise we would have huge swathes of unemployed blacksmiths, farriers, gold diggers you name it. Better to see the writing on the wall and get ahead of curve so the change is gradual and people and economies can adjust than adopt a head in the sand approach.

[rkelsen]

Employment always works itself out. Otherwise we would have huge swathes of unemployed blacksmiths, farriers, gold diggers you name it. Better to see the writing on the wall and get ahead of curve so the change is gradual and people and economies can adjust than adopt a head in the sand approach.

Dunno about unemployed gold diggers... we have the Kardashian sisters...

[opik_bidin]

Yes. Children should be able to walk and cycle to achool safely witbout their parents. Parents shouldnt be burdened to drive their child to school. The achool shouldnt be atoxic field

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... lth-chiefs

Cars should be banned from idling near schools and congestioncharges imposed across the UK as part of measures recommended by the government public health agency.

In a report on Monday, Public Health England (PHE) said up to 36,000 people were dying each year from human-made air pollution.

the report calls for on councils to introduce no-idling zones outside schools and hospitals; the imposition of more congestion charges and low emission zones; and the development of a vehicle-charging infrastructure to promote a “step-change” in the uptake of electric cars.

[DavidS]

Brumby, it isn't about being an "advocate" for climate change. The reality is that we have observed changes in the climate and the best scientific explanation is human activity which has altered the chemical composition of the atmosphere.

Of course, the opposite question is: how can we change the chemical composition of the atmosphere and expect nothing to change?

As for employment and exports, are you kidding me? This is a huge and fabulous opportunity for Australia. We have massive amounts of sun-drenched country, we can generate way more power than we can use - let's generate power and export it. Better than exporting coal, we can generate energy from the sun and wind and tides and possibly other ways for hundreds of years and export it. Let's do it. This is an opportunity, not a problem.

DS

[brumby33]

Brumby, it isn't about being an "advocate" for climate change. The reality is that we have observed changes in the climate and the best scientific explanation is human activity which has altered the chemical composition of the atmosphere.

Of course, the opposite question is: how can we change the chemical composition of the atmosphere and expect nothing to change?

As for employment and exports, are you kidding me? This is a huge and fabulous opportunity for Australia. We have massive amounts of sun-drenched country, we can generate way more power than we can use - let's generate power and export it. Better than exporting coal, we can generate energy from the sun and wind and tides and possibly other ways for hundreds of years and export it. Let's do it. This is an opportunity, not a problem.

DS

I do agree with our opportunity to be self sufficient of coal power, but I don't believe we have enough storage capability as yet to fulfil the entire Country's needs 365days per year.....and yeah the coal industry employees a lot of people, maybe it should be ok whilst other Countries will keep buying our coal but local industries relying on the coal industry.
One major negative I find with the coal industry is the open cut mining, these holes in the ground are hundreds of feet deep......when a mine becomes spent as they do eventually...then we are left with gigantic craters in our landscape.

In order to capture this sundrenched power source, would these solar power stations have to be placed out in the outback and windmills be placed on the great Australian bite in order to generate enough for Australia's needs? I know there's a huge Solar farm in South Australia.

How on earth could you export electricity?

brumby33

[Thoglette]

How on earth could you export electricity?

• The same way Norway and Tasmania do it
• as synthetic hydrocarbons (the US Navy is the leader here)
• as captured hydrogen - e.g. as ammonia

And that's before I crack out anything from Nikola Tesla

[opik_bidin]

"The automobile has dissolved the living tissue of the city. Its appetite for space is absolutely insatiable; moving & parked, it devours urban land, leaving buildings as mere islands of habitable space in a sea of dangerous & ugly traffic."
—James Marston Fitch, NY Times, 1960.

[DavidS]

The major problem with coal is that we can't burn it all without changing the climate.

We could put solar panels in the outback, why not? Windmills can go all sorts of places, tidal power can be harnessed in many places. Also, how about solar collecting power stations which can deliver power for many hours after the sun goes down. Plenty of options.

As for cars i would think hydrogen power is a good option and possibly electric cars in cities. Oh, and a far lower reliance on cars would be a bloody good idea too.

DS