the Crazy eDevice rider thread

[jasonc]

Parisians aren't a big fan either
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102181660
89% voted overwhelmingly to banish hire e scooters

[Mr Purple]

Almost became a statistic today on the V1 southbound.

Descending a hill around a blind left hand corner and some absolute knob on an overpowered fat tyred e-bike almost took me out while passing a line of bikes on the wrong side at about 60-70km/hr.

Didn't move over an inch, I had to bail out onto the grass. It's only a matter of time until someone is killed by one of these idiots.

[AdelaidePeter]

https://theconversation.com/why-melbour ... ort-236781

The article argues (and from a quick read, I agree) that hired scooters (such as those being banned in Melbourne) are relatively safe, due to being speed-limited; and also their riders are insured. The main dangers are in privately owned scooters. So banning hire scooters fixes little or nothing.

[Mike Ayling]

https://theconversation.com/why-melbour ... ort-236781

The article argues (and from a quick read, I agree) that hired scooters (such as those being banned in Melbourne) are relatively safe, due to being speed-limited; and also their riders are insured. The main dangers are in privately owned scooters. So banning hire scooters fixes little or nothing.

Agree.

[CmdrBiggles]

https://theconversation.com/why-melbour ... ort-236781

The article argues (and from a quick read, I agree) that hired scooters (such as those being banned in Melbourne) are relatively safe, due to being speed-limited; and also their riders are insured. The main dangers are in privately owned scooters. So banning hire scooters fixes little or nothing.

Agree.

The hire scooters may be safe. The people who hire them and ride them are the bigger issue here in Melbourne.
As for privately owned scooters, that comment above is simply entirely uninformed.

[jasonc]

https://theconversation.com/why-melbour ... ort-236781

The article argues (and from a quick read, I agree) that hired scooters (such as those being banned in Melbourne) are relatively safe, due to being speed-limited; and also their riders are insured. The main dangers are in privately owned scooters. So banning hire scooters fixes little or nothing.

Agree.

The hire scooters may be safe. The people who hire them and ride them are the bigger issue here in Melbourne.
As for privately owned scooters, that comment above is simply entirely uninformed.

I'm still averaging seeing one legal pmd a week in Brisbane. On the sunny coast this week. Haven't seen a legal pmd/pmd rider yet. I'm seeing a lot more than one pmd....

[elantra]

Almost became a statistic today on the V1 southbound.

Descending a hill around a blind left hand corner and some absolute knob on an overpowered fat tyred e-bike almost took me out while passing a line of bikes on the wrong side at about 60-70km/hr.

<snip>

An illegal (unregisterable) motorcycle

Obviously the tip of the iceberg.

Am I correct in suspecting that the Police are not interested or not capable of addressing this issue ?
Which is by no means a trivial issue, lives are at stake.

Obviously ain’t the “Smart State” anymore.

[Cyclophiliac]

Almost became a statistic today on the V1 southbound.

Descending a hill around a blind left hand corner and some absolute knob on an overpowered fat tyred e-bike almost took me out while passing a line of bikes on the wrong side at about 60-70km/hr.

<snip>

An illegal (unregisterable) motorcycle

Obviously the tip of the iceberg.

Am I correct in suspecting that the Police are not interested or not capable of addressing this issue ?
Which is by no means a trivial issue, lives are at stake.

Obviously ain’t the “Smart State” anymore.

There's just not enough police, and motorists are behaving like idiots in far, far greater numbers (while being in control of vehicles with far more destructive potential). Then of course there's the general Australian attitude towards motorised vehicles of any sort somehow being a right and not an earned privilege. In other words, we're not the smart country, far from it. Our politicians could learn from some Western European countries, if they chose to (which they generally don't). If I sound p#ssed off with this country, it's because I am.

[Mr Purple]

I don't expect police to have the resources to be able to enforce the PMD laws. And it'd be very hard.

I'm mainly disappointed at the complete lack of regulation and enforcement on the import and sale of the stupid things. Not only is there a complete lack of quality control so they're burning down houses quite regularly, there are huge numbers of e-scooters and e-bikes that clearly don't meet any laws for public usage being openly sold on a regular basis, even by major retailers.

Close that loophole, we wouldn't have a problem. And don't give me this 'for off road use only' BS. If you can't prove you own ten acres minimum you shouldn't be able to buy one.

I can't go buy an new illegal car or motorbike easily, why is it the case here?

[jasonc]

Almost became a statistic today on the V1 southbound.

Descending a hill around a blind left hand corner and some absolute knob on an overpowered fat tyred e-bike almost took me out while passing a line of bikes on the wrong side at about 60-70km/hr.

<snip>

An illegal (unregisterable) motorcycle

Obviously the tip of the iceberg.

Am I correct in suspecting that the Police are not interested or not capable of addressing this issue ?
Which is by no means a trivial issue, lives are at stake.

Obviously ain’t the “Smart State” anymore.

There's just not enough police, and motorists are behaving like idiots in far, far greater numbers (while being in control of vehicles with far more destructive potential). Then of course there's the general Australian attitude towards motorised vehicles of any sort somehow being a right and not an earned privilege. In other words, we're not the smart country, far from it. Our politicians could learn from some Western European countries, if they chose to (which they generally don't). If I sound p#ssed off with this country, it's because I am.

Most of the problems I'm having are on bike only paths, and shared paths (pmds have a limit of 12km/h on footpaths and shared paths). We have some token enforcement in one spot in Brisbane (less than two kms from the GPO). I would like that to move further out.

Alternatively, make all the bike only paths shared paths and have a police officer at every corner. You'll soon fine them out of existence

[fat and old]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-ac ... 7432746980

What a crying-ass shame

His bike was legal tho

[WyvernRH]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-ac ... 7432746980

What a crying-ass shame

His bike was legal tho

He was lucky it wasn't a pedestrian or cyclist he hit, or he would be up for a few more fines and possibly an insurance claim cos I bet he wasn't insured . IMHO he got off lightly.
It's not just e-bikes, you'll cop the same on a normal bike (in NSW at least).
Usual New.com.au half truths as well. NSW cops can't hit you for a random breath test on a non-motor vehicle BUT they can breath test you if they have due cause to suspect you are alcoholically impaired. Zig-zagging all over the road or falling off in front of them for example . Also, you may submit to a breath test, i.e. they ask 'can we breathalyze you' and you say 'Yes' and do it of your own accord.
Surprising how often that works according to friend of mine. All in the phrasing of the question maybe ?

Richard

[Andy01]

I don't expect police to have the resources to be able to enforce the PMD laws. And it'd be very hard.

I also think the problem is that the police probably aren't that interested because very little happens if things go to court.

In today's newsfeeds, the 65yo bicycle rider who was killed a couple of years ago by a speeding motorbike has resulted in the motorbike rider getting a 4 year sentence, suspended after 8 months

This was in spite of the motorbike ride being recorded on a GoPro, including it doing double the speed limit and doing wheelies, and routinely being on the wrong side of the road. So there was direct video evidence of the ride, right up to and including the collision, showing multiple offences - and still very little happened

So even if the police do charge someone not much seems to happen anyway.

[Mr Purple]

In today's newsfeeds, the 65yo bicycle rider who was killed a couple of years ago by a speeding motorbike has resulted in the motorbike rider getting a 4 year sentence, suspended after 8 months

This was in spite of the motorbike ride being recorded on a GoPro, including it doing double the speed limit and doing wheelies, and routinely being on the wrong side of the road. So there was direct video evidence of the ride, right up to and including the collision, showing multiple offences - and still very little happened

So even if the police do charge someone not much seems to happen anyway.

Yep, I posted this link in the fatalities thread, unfortunately.

https://amp.9news.com.au/article/b06d9d ... 86898a7226

Absolutely appalling. Huge uproar in Facebook comments at the time saying cyclists should be banned from Cootha. Knowing which way the rider was going and the fact it was uphill on a right hander for him, it was always 100% obvious the motorcyclist was completely at fault. Honestly, they would be more sensible to ban cars from Cootha.

Only yesterday some dingbat on a motorbike passed me going up Cootha back doing a solid 90km/hr+. And yet they're probably more likely to fine cyclists for speeding up there than motorists.

[Anrai]

Then of course there's the general Australian attitude towards motorised vehicles of any sort somehow being a right and not an earned privilege.

Gotta preface that my intent is to spotlight why this attitude exists at all, not to defend it. I'm pretty sure a large number of people with this attitude already live in the cities with pretty good access to public transport and/or not-abysmal cycling commute times to wherever they'd have to go. Having been unfit and overweight as a person who was primarily walking to get around, I'm also horrified to think of the large scale health consequences of people who don't get even that level of exercise.

A non-zero part of this is industrial modernisation resulting in scenarios of it no longer being economically feasible to live/work in some remote locations if your long distance travel is limited to the walking speed of a horse. Given where we're talking about this there's an argument to be made for long distance bicycle travel, but again for many places this wouldn't be feasible either and the alternatives are shoehorn more people into the cities, or pump more welfare payments into remote communities where due to industrial/economic centralisation elsewhere there is no longer the local employment volume to support population that have lived there for generations.)

[MichaelB]

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-ac ... 7432746980

What a crying-ass shame

His bike was legal tho

Mr Fortuna’s lawyer Maurice Baroni called it a “quirk of the legislation”.

“It is, unfortunately,” Magistrate Zaki said.

No unfortunate about it.

Stop whinging

[hunch]

Not so certain police resources are so thinly stretched. They had about 12k officers in NSW in the mid to late 2000s as I recall, closer to 20k now, population hasn't increased that much I'm pretty sure. Difference in policing nowadays is it appears reactive not proactive and anything traffic related is mostly left to automation.

Not only is there a complete lack of quality control so they're burning down houses quite regularly

New legislation is coming in here to maybe address all the substandard batteries and chargers. The stats in NSW alone, reported earlier in the week, were 4 home fires every 5 days caused by e-devices. Reported last weekend, a unit in western Sydney was burnt to a cinder by a 3 day old e-bike. I'd wager supplied by one of the usual cowboy operators here.

Interestingly the renewal last week had a 2 page flyer from the insurer about this stuff. Imagine there will be more than a few cases of coverage denied in future if your 2 wheeler can be found in the smouldering ruin and is non-compliant.

To complete the whinge close passed by a guy and girl doubling on a fat wheeler while standing on the footpath with my back to them a couple weeks ago (could feel the breeze). Unlocking the bike 5 minutes later, same pair shooting past shop entrances in one of the more heavily pedestrianised parts of Sydney at 20kph plus while carrying a carton - like trying to put brains in statues!

[jasonc]

The Betoota get it
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/humans- ... rgy-drink/

[uart]

It's not just e-bikes, you'll cop the same on a normal bike (in NSW at least).

Yes it's a shame (and stupid) that this newcorp story focused solely on ebikes, when all bicycles are consider as vehicles under Australian road rules. So he most certainly could have received the exact same penalty if he was just on a regular push bike.

If we ignore the e-bike aspect for a moment, and focusing on the 12 months loss of motor vehicle license for a push bike offense, then I actually think that the guy has a point (yes I realise he is a total goose for riding high range over the harbour bridge, but talking in general rather than this specific case). The one point where I actually agree with the guy is that there is a massive inequity in the penalty depending on whether or not you also happen to hold a motor vehicle license (bearing in mind that one is absolutely not needed to ride a push bike).

Personally I would prefer it if all riding offenses on a push bike where completely decoupled from driver's license and demerit points ect. (Not that I've ever encountered problems like this myself.)

[WyvernRH]

The one point where I actually agree with the guy is that there is a massive inequity in the penalty depending on whether or not you also happen to hold a motor vehicle license (bearing in mind that one is absolutely not needed to ride a push bike).

Personally I would prefer it if all riding offenses on a push bike where completely decoupled from driver's license and demerit points ect. (Not that I've ever encountered problems like this myself.)

Yes, I get the point you are making there.
However, the 'logic' behind the current law structure was explained to me thus...

• Of course everyone has a motor vehicle license once they are 17-18 years old. (big assumption but...)

• If they have reached this supposed level of competence <sic> it doesn't matter how they did the offence we assume they have shown that they are not competent and they shouldn't be allowed to use any motor vehicle as proscribed by law.

• If you do not meet point (1) then how can we punish you cos we can't stop you riding a push bike.

Works to some extent, you speed on a motorbike, it affects your car license as well or vice-versa. Even worse if you are a professional driver punting a truck of some sort. You are meant to be more responsible maybe? In my experience there are very few 'adult' Australians who don't have a motor vehicle license of some sort once past puberty so it seems fair most of the time to me.

Also, not sure about this but IIRC in NSW you can accrue points even if you don't have a license which become active when you gain that license? Is that correct?

Richard

[uart]

Of course everyone has a motor vehicle license once they are 17-18 years old. (big assumption but...)

Certainly most, but definitely not all. My sister in law is 55 y.o and has never held a driver's license.

and they shouldn't be allowed to use any motor vehicle as proscribed by law.

Except that a bicycle is not a motor vehicle. So we end up with the rather absurd outcome that it's still perfectly legal for them to use the vehicle on which they committed the offense (their pushy), but is now illegal to use some other totally unrelated class of vehicle.

Works to some extent, you speed on a motorbike, it affects your car license as well or vice-versa. Even worse if you are a professional driver punting a truck of some sort.

But again, those are all motor vehicles, which do of course require a license, so not really equivalent to a bicycle.

[Lukeyboy]

It's not just e-bikes, you'll cop the same on a normal bike (in NSW at least).

Yes it's a shame (and stupid) that this newcorp story focused solely on ebikes, when all bicycles are consider as vehicles under Australian road rules. So he most certainly could have received the exact same penalty if he was just on a regular push bike.

If we ignore the e-bike aspect for a moment, and focusing on the 12 months loss of motor vehicle license for a push bike offense, then I actually think that the guy has a point (yes I realise he is a total goose for riding high range over the harbour bridge, but talking in general rather than this specific case). The one point where I actually agree with the guy is that there is a massive inequity in the penalty depending on whether or not you also happen to hold a motor vehicle license (bearing in mind that one is absolutely not needed to ride a push bike).

Personally I would prefer it if all riding offenses on a push bike where completely decoupled from driver's license and demerit points ect. (Not that I've ever encountered problems like this myself.)

Those are motorvehicles. Its important to remember laws and fines all apply differently depending where you live. For instance in queensland you cannot get any demerit points for traffic offences committed while riding a bicycle or horse even the wrong way over the story bridge. You can rack up the fines but not demerit points. However I believe that can change if you are on a restricted/temporary licence eg driving only to/from work between w/x and y/z hours mon-fri due to the wording/conditions associated with the restricted licence terms where the terms used are vehicles instead of motor vehicles (still won't get demerit point loses but you can loose the restricted licence).

I don't expect police to have the resources to be able to enforce the PMD laws. And it'd be very hard.

I also think the problem is that the police probably aren't that interested because very little happens if things go to court.

In today's newsfeeds, the 65yo bicycle rider who was killed a couple of years ago by a speeding motorbike has resulted in the motorbike rider getting a 4 year sentence, suspended after 8 months

This was in spite of the motorbike ride being recorded on a GoPro, including it doing double the speed limit and doing wheelies, and routinely being on the wrong side of the road. So there was direct video evidence of the ride, right up to and including the collision, showing multiple offences - and still very little happened

So even if the police do charge someone not much seems to happen anyway.

I find it interesting that cyclists love to go on and on time and time again about how unfair and unjust it is when police enforce speed limits for cyclists (even if it sounds stupid that its a 10/20kph speed limit), riding through stop signs, riding without a helmet, fine cyclists for not having a bell and that the police should be doing things better with their time. Then they are also the ones that cry out for police enforcement for escooters because they ride on the road to avoid poorly maintained footpaths (if there is one), they are going too slow in the bike lane or they just have a general distain for escooter riders because they've adopted the same motorist vs cyclist mindset. There's only so many police resources that can be devoted. Take the close pass law. Having known but also talked to officers there are some really close passes that get submitted. But there are also a lot of spammers that take up their time eg reporting trivial things such as passing 1.4m instead of 1.5m etc. They need the paperwork. If its contested in court time has to be taken off. Now this goes for pretty much everything. You also have arguments for more police needed for patrols. More police needed for patrolling hoon hotspots. More police needed to tackle the youth crime epidemic. And you need more police for blah blah blah. The entire Queensland Police Force including the admin team can't fill Suncorp Stadium. They have about 17,000 staff members which is about 9,000 less than the stadiums average attendance - https://www.austadiums.com/stadiums/sun ... ium/crowds But hey of that 12,000 the more of that can be put on enforcing some random escooter rider doing 28kph downhill the better???

All it shows is that active transport isn't taken seriously with local and state governments and its easier to divide the public and blame a minority mode than it is to invest in proper active transport infrastructure. We have crumbling non daa compliant footpaths and footpath issues that have resulted in injuries to scooter riders not being resolved. The same can also be said for public transport. PT isn't always a valid option even in the CBD or CBD area let alone before you get to the suburbs. Gregory Terrace. 1.5km from the CBD. 0 sunday public transport services. There's the downtown loop if you are close to it or the 301/320 on St Pauls but once again its a quick 1.5km bike ride or escooter ride to the city.

[find_bruce]

Reporting of court cases is often inaccurate & I wouldn't expect News.com.au to get it. If you want to read the actual court decision its R v Fortuna [2024] NSWDC 328 - the 12 month drivers licence suspension was the minimum the court could impose (s203(2)(d)), the fine of $600 was extremely light & neither were the subject of the appeal. The only appeal was about an interlock device & the s 209(1)(f) is limited to "an offence against section 112(1)(a), (b) or (c) involving driving a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol."

There is no doubt that the Road Transport Act is intended to apply to bicycles as vehicles & that drivers of vehicles includes riders of bicycles.

Driving under the influence of alcohol has been an offence for more than a century. That riding any bicycle under the influence was an offence was reasonably well known & we discussed it here 3 years ago PCA Test No point re-typing what I said then

In terms of post accident alcohol testing, in NSW its laid out in Schedule 3 of the Road Transport Act.

Key points

• Applies to hospitalised person who was a pedestrian, driver or rider of a vehicle - motor & unmotored
• Applies if the accident was on a road, which includes a shared path
• police can test driver or rider of a motor vehicle, regardless of whether hospitalised
• if a cyclist or pedestrian is not hospitalised, police can only test them if a person is killed or likely to die

While you refer to PCA, there is no Prescribed Concentration of Alcohol for a pedestrian or bicycle rider - it only applies to motor vehicles - details are in Part 5.1 of the Road Transport Act.

A cyclist can be charged with "riding under the influence" - s112. What does this mean? Those with long memories will recall the debate whether the PCA should be 0.05 or 0.08 - 0.05 is the point at which few people are impaired by alcohol, 0.08 is the point at which most, but not all people will be impaired. Any prosecution or court case will require evidence from a pharmacologist. Those that I have spoke to will generally require a blood alcohol of 0.10 before they will say a person is impaired by alcohol.

I have little sympathy for this turkey who was 0.152. No need for an expert pharmacologist he pleaded guilty no doubt on the advice of his barrister that he was gone for all money. His line about a beer or 2 is at least 6 or 7 beers short, plus an extra beer for every hour he spent drinking. At least on a bike the person most likely to be hurt by his stupidity was himself.

Anyone whose judgment is so impaired that they think its ok to ride a bike when they struggle to walk is not someone who should have the privilege of driving a motor vehicle

[Scott No Mates]

I came across a new one today. Going around the Bay Run I spotted a pram in the bike lane being 'pushed' by a powered skateboard.

The redeeming factor, both father and child (in the pram) were wearing helmets.

[jasonc]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-21/ ... /104250204

1. it's a 60 zone. PMDs are not allowed on the road where the speed limit is above 50km/h. on footpaths the speed limit for PMDs is 12km/h
2.

Police said the girl was in her early teens.

the age limit is 16. 16 is not early teens
3.

The crash comes a day after the Sunshine Coast Hospital and Health Service reported 118 e-scooter riders were treated in its emergency department last year.

that's seems like a lot