Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/3502404 ... d-motorway#

jasonc wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:01 am

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/3502404 ... d-motorway#

Krazy !!!

But he’s (?she’s) body language is all about trepidation and concentration - presumably the power and speed is at its limit.

In a way it is very vaguely reminiscent of my use of a 49cc motor scooter in Brisbane in the late 2000’s.
It was absolutely at its limit at 80 km/hr on the Inner City Bypass.
But that’s where the similarity ends.
The Aprilia motor scooter had excellent lights, suspension, brakes and tyres - much bigger than on an e-scooter.
Also it was registered and insured.
And a full tank of fuel was about 3 dollars and lasted almost a week.

Under new SA legislation, privately owned e-scooters and other "personal mobility devices" will be treated in the same way as bicycles and allowed on roads and footpaths.
Speed restrictions will apply — with a proposed maximum speed of 25 kilometres per hour on roads and bike lanes, and 15kph on paths used by pedestrians.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-18/ ... /103990688

Poor SA

am50em wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:34 pm

Under new SA legislation, privately owned e-scooters and other "personal mobility devices" will be treated in the same way as bicycles and allowed on roads and footpaths.
Speed restrictions will apply — with a proposed maximum speed of 25 kilometres per hour on roads and bike lanes, and 15kph on paths used by pedestrians.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-18/ ... /103990688

The silly thing about it is, that the scoorters have been illegal FULL STOP, yet SFA is done about them.

Now there are some rules, but what will actually change ....

am50em wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:34 pm

Under new SA legislation, privately owned e-scooters and other "personal mobility devices" will be treated in the same way as bicycles and allowed on roads and footpaths.
Speed restrictions will apply — with a proposed maximum speed of 25 kilometres per hour on roads and bike lanes, and 15kph on paths used by pedestrians.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-18/ ... /103990688

I've never cycled in SA, but does it have shared paths used by both cyclists and pedestrians, and do cyclists also have a 15km/h limit on such paths? If they do, it would be almost pointless cycling on them, and if they don't, I can only imagine how the e-scooter users will feel about cyclists being able to legally pass them going noticeably faster.

Cyclophiliac wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:36 pm

I've never cycled in SA, but does it have shared paths used by both cyclists and pedestrians, and do cyclists also have a 15km/h limit on such paths? If they do, it would be almost pointless cycling on them, and if they don't, I can only imagine how the e-scooter users will feel about cyclists being able to legally pass them going noticeably faster.

In my experience in Queensland at least it doesn't really matter what laws you make because e-scooter riders will only obey them by accident. They're quite happy to fly down shared paths up here doing 50km/hr+ despite being allegedly held to a 12km/hr limit.

Funnily enough e-bike riders are generally far more law abiding. I assume because anyone who cares about the legality of what they're riding does the research first and works out e-bikes are usable in far more places than e-scooters. Having said that I was passed last week while holding 20km/hr up a 6.1% climb by a teenager without a helmet on an e-bike who was doing a wheelie the whole time so there are clearly exceptions.

Cyclophiliac wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:36 pm

am50em wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:34 pm

Under new SA legislation, privately owned e-scooters and other "personal mobility devices" will be treated in the same way as bicycles and allowed on roads and footpaths.
Speed restrictions will apply — with a proposed maximum speed of 25 kilometres per hour on roads and bike lanes, and 15kph on paths used by pedestrians.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-18/ ... /103990688

I've never cycled in SA, but does it have shared paths used by both cyclists and pedestrians, and do cyclists also have a 15km/h limit on such paths? If they do, it would be almost pointless cycling on them, and if they don't, I can only imagine how the e-scooter users will feel about cyclists being able to legally pass them going noticeably faster.

Yes, no.
e-scooters are generally faster than 25 and don't give a rats.

Mr Purple wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:21 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:36 pm

I've never cycled in SA, but does it have shared paths used by both cyclists and pedestrians, and do cyclists also have a 15km/h limit on such paths? If they do, it would be almost pointless cycling on them, and if they don't, I can only imagine how the e-scooter users will feel about cyclists being able to legally pass them going noticeably faster.

In my experience in Queensland at least it doesn't really matter what laws you make because e-scooter riders will only obey them by accident. They're quite happy to fly down shared paths up here doing 50km/hr+ despite being allegedly held to a 12km/hr limit.

Funnily enough e-bike riders are generally far more law abiding. I assume because anyone who cares about the legality of what they're riding does the research first and works out e-bikes are usable in far more places than e-scooters. Having said that I was passed last week while holding 20km/hr up a 6.1% climb by a teenager without a helmet on an e-bike who was doing a wheelie the whole time so there are clearly exceptions.

Retailers in QLD are obliged to sell e-scooters with the speed controller locked at 20-23km/h. If they are going faster than this, the owner has tinkered with the controller to bypass the maximum speed (typically fixed in gear 1). Anybody with a modicum of electronics knowhow or throttle True/False logic can do this, but it really is dicing with a disaster, as throttle control is directly related to the battery and motors, and any change to speed must be accompanied by changes to motor and throttle controller metrics — the meat in the sandwich that only workshops/qualified techs can perform.

That is quite apart from the fact that modification for higher speed is plainly illegal, yet persists as a defacto acceptable behaviour among those determined to put the wind in their hair.

MichaelB wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:41 pm

......e-scooters are generally faster than 25 and don't give a rats.

the SA rules are broadly similar to the Vic rules introduced a few months ago...if I see an e-scooter travelling at less that 20km/hr it will nearly always be a rental one...the majority of privately owned ones are travelling at speeds that are 40-50kmh...I've changed my riding behaviour as have found on some busy shared use paths places that were previously safe to pass runners/peds are no longer safe because of the closing speed of more often e-scooters than e-bikes...slightly different in last week witnessed 2 near miss ped/e-scooter incidents both made worse by the riders struggling to control direction at speed...one with the rider cutting across a pedestrian and forcing them into a wall to avoid hitting me oncoming as they passed the ped on a blind bend...the other on a damaged section of trail (paint marked for repair by council) e-scooter rider got bounced towards oncoming ped' at high speed...ped' took evasive action

MichaelB wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:41 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:36 pm

am50em wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:34 pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-18/ ... /103990688

I've never cycled in SA, but does it have shared paths used by both cyclists and pedestrians, and do cyclists also have a 15km/h limit on such paths? If they do, it would be almost pointless cycling on them, and if they don't, I can only imagine how the e-scooter users will feel about cyclists being able to legally pass them going noticeably faster.

Yes, no.
e-scooters are generally faster than 25 and don't give a rats.

I think I'd prefer a single limit of 25, whether it is a road or a path.

First, because that is in line with what e-bikes are allowed to do under motor assistance. People might object that they don't want e-scooters shooting past pedestrians at 25, but that already can happen with cyclists and e-cyclists and it seems to work; bearing in mind that we always have to give way to pedestrians.

Second, because I don't think they're equipped with speedometers, and 15 isn't really that fast, it's about the speed of a fast jogger. So it would be pretty easy to break the law accidentally. Surely a consistent 25 limit would both be easier to keep to, and easier to police.

AdelaidePeter wrote: ↑
……
I think I'd prefer a single limit of 25, whether it is a road or a path.

First, because that is in line with what e-bikes are allowed to do under motor assistance. People might object that they don't want e-scooters shooting past pedestrians at 25, but that already can happen with cyclists and e-cyclists and it seems to work; bearing in mind that we always have to give way to pedestrians.

Second, because I don't think they're equipped with speedometers, and 15 isn't really that fast, it's about the speed of a fast jogger. So it would be pretty easy to break the law accidentally. Surely a consistent 25 limit would both be easier to keep to, and easier to police.

Yes. KISS principle (Keep it simple Stuart)

So easy for bureaucratic bodies to make new laws and regulations, but so hard for them to commit the manpower to actually enforce them.

While I’m at it, you would think that we should have nationally consistent traffic laws, that might also be consistent with the KISS principle !

CmdrBiggles wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:09 pm

Retailers in QLD are obliged to sell e-scooters with the speed controller locked at 20-23km/h. If they are going faster than this, the owner has tinkered with the controller to bypass the maximum speed (typically fixed in gear 1). Anybody with a modicum of electronics knowhow or throttle True/False logic can do this, but it really is dicing with a disaster, as throttle control is directly related to the battery and motors, and any change to speed must be accompanied by changes to motor and throttle controller metrics — the meat in the sandwich that only workshops/qualified techs can perform.

That is quite apart from the fact that modification for higher speed is plainly illegal, yet persists as a defacto acceptable behaviour among those determined to put the wind in their hair.

Unfortunately the requirement to limit the devices to themselves to 25km/hr in Queensland was waived in the last lot of law changes.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety ... ty-devices

So we're now in this absurd situation where retailers can sell you anything they like, but you've got to use your law abiding nature to never exceed 25km/hr. Because many e-scooter riders aren't known for their law abiding nature they completely disregard this, and because they can do 80-100km/hr they're almost impossible to catch if they do so.

I do agree in principle that 12km/hr is absurdly low and 25km/hr would be more reasonable. But I would say the vast majority of e-scooter riders I see are 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and breaking the 25km/hr limit by 20-50km/hr anyway so don't care in the slightest.

Mr Purple wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 2:17 pm

Unfortunately the requirement to limit the devices to themselves to 25km/hr in Queensland was waived in the last lot of law changes.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety ... ty-devices

So we're now in this absurd situation where retailers can sell you anything they like, but you've got to use your law abiding nature to never exceed 25km/hr. Because many e-scooter riders aren't known for their law abiding nature they completely disregard this, and because they can do 80-100km/hr they're almost impossible to catch if they do so.

I do agree in principle that 12km/hr is absurdly low and 25km/hr would be more reasonable. But I would say the vast majority of e-scooter riders I see are 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and breaking the 25km/hr limit by 20-50km/hr anyway so don't care in the slightest.

Ah, so. I bought my e-scooter from Brisbane two years ago, and it was delivered with the throttle locked betweenn 22 and 25km/h, and it remains locked. I think the QLD law is begging for trouble, and senseless — is the State becoming a lily-livered, lawless outpost like the NT? And from the look of the many and varied reports in this thread, trouble is never far away on the roads or paths...

P

Yep. They changed the laws in a stupid way.

The ridiculous thing is that e-bikes remain strictly limited to 25km/hr and with pedal assistance only, but e-scooters are pretty much a free for all. As if the e-scooter rider base is trusted to be more sensible than the e-bike riders.

Also the fact that the speeding fines for bicycles and e-bikes are up to three times higher than the e-scooter speeding fines. That's just crazy.

The only solution at this point is regulation at the point of sale. And it's the one thing they're not doing.

!!! Spammer !!! to 25? Ha. I get overtaken by them daily, mostly not pedaling at 40+
Couldn't keep up with two escooters this afternoon. Looked down and saw 45....
And no way in hell should pmds with their high centre of gravity small wheels and short wheel base be doing 25 on a foot path. 12 is perfectly fine

Driving home today through Parramatta CBD and a food delivery e-bike guy was in the bus only lane. Bus had to change lanes to overtake him, and I thought the driver was surprisingly tolerant of the e-bike guy. Bus got ahead and then stopped at a bus stop, and the guy passed the bus and at the next lights was first in line - in the bus only lane, with the bus sitting right on his clacker. What a clueless turkey!

Retrobyte wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:42 pm

Driving home today through Parramatta CBD and a food delivery e-bike guy was in the bus only lane. Bus had to change lanes to overtake him, and I thought the driver was surprisingly tolerant of the e-bike guy. Bus got ahead and then stopped at a bus stop, and the guy passed the bus and at the next lights was first in line - in the bus only lane, with the bus sitting right on his clacker. What a clueless turkey!

Yes, any bus driver that deliberately stops close behind any cyclist is pretty clueless.

Cyclophiliac wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:28 pm

Retrobyte wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:42 pm

Driving home today through Parramatta CBD and a food delivery e-bike guy was in the bus only lane. Bus had to change lanes to overtake him, and I thought the driver was surprisingly tolerant of the e-bike guy. Bus got ahead and then stopped at a bus stop, and the guy passed the bus and at the next lights was first in line - in the bus only lane, with the bus sitting right on his clacker. What a clueless turkey!

Yes, any bus driver that deliberately stops close behind any cyclist is pretty clueless.

It was a bus only lane - cyclists or e-bike food delivery riders are not allowed there at all. It wasn't a standard bus lane, it even had a "B" light at the traffic lights to let the buses turn before the adjoining lanes. The food guy was totally oblivious that he was riding where he's not permitted. No wonder the injury rate is so high for food delivery e-bikers.

jasonc wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:26 pm

!!! Spammer !!! to 25? Ha. I get overtaken by them daily, mostly not pedaling at 40+
Couldn't keep up with two escooters this afternoon. Looked down and saw 45....
And no way in hell should pmds with their high centre of gravity small wheels and short wheel base be doing 25 on a foot path. 12 is perfectly fine

It's irrelevant really. You could bring in a law saying every e-scooter needed a person holding a red flag walking in front of them and they wouldn't obey the laws any less than they do now.

Mr Purple wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:40 am

jasonc wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 5:26 pm

!!! Spammer !!! to 25? Ha. I get overtaken by them daily, mostly not pedaling at 40+
Couldn't keep up with two escooters this afternoon. Looked down and saw 45....
And no way in hell should pmds with their high centre of gravity small wheels and short wheel base be doing 25 on a foot path. 12 is perfectly fine

It's irrelevant really. You could bring in a law saying every e-scooter needed a person holding a red flag walking in front of them and they wouldn't obey the laws any less than they do now.

agree. but relaxing the laws is not the solution. enforcing the existing laws is

Retrobyte wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:35 am

Cyclophiliac wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:28 pm

Retrobyte wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:42 pm

Driving home today through Parramatta CBD and a food delivery e-bike guy was in the bus only lane. Bus had to change lanes to overtake him, and I thought the driver was surprisingly tolerant of the e-bike guy. Bus got ahead and then stopped at a bus stop, and the guy passed the bus and at the next lights was first in line - in the bus only lane, with the bus sitting right on his clacker. What a clueless turkey!

Yes, any bus driver that deliberately stops close behind any cyclist is pretty clueless.

It was a bus only lane - cyclists or e-bike food delivery riders are not allowed there at all. It wasn't a standard bus lane, it even had a "B" light at the traffic lights to let the buses turn before the adjoining lanes. The food guy was totally oblivious that he was riding where he's not permitted. No wonder the injury rate is so high for food delivery e-bikers.

He probably did it through self-preservation, actually. If I had to choose between a bus-only lane and the general traffic lane next it, I'd use the bus lane: it's just common sense, particularly since too many motorists also use these bus-only lanes. When they do, the cyclist is far better off in the middle of the bus lane, than between 2 lanes with speeding motorists on both sides.

The e-bike phenomenon is spreading like wildfire.

In NSW these throttle controlled e-bikes are of course illegal on public thoroughfares.
Despite this issue there are plenty being used with no fear of “the law”

You see them being used on the footpath (fortunately a nice wide footpath) directly in front of the Regional Police Headquarters at Tweed Heads.

This morning I saw 2 e-bikes being used by High School students at Kingscliff (NSW)
The e-bikes were very similar to this model
https://emovebikes.com.au/products/dir ... 3-250w-48v

The second one that I saw was being piloted by a kid in school uniform. Wearing a helmet and not speeding.
But he did have a pilion passenger - another student, who was studying something on his/her phone as a saw them pass by. Probably social media rather than swotting for an exam this morning !

So in other words they are being used by students to get to school. I guess that there will soon be heaps of these devices parked at the school.

No doubt the educational and law-enforcement bureaucracies are not up to speed on this.
Are they ever up to speed on any issues these days ?

elantra wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:28 am

The second one that I saw was being piloted by a kid in school uniform. Wearing a helmet and not speeding.
But he did have a pilion passenger - another student

Is that illegal if the bike is designed to seat two and both are 16+?

Anrai wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:56 pm

elantra wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:28 am

The second one that I saw was being piloted by a kid in school uniform. Wearing a helmet and not speeding.
But he did have a pilion passenger - another student

Is that illegal if the bike is designed to seat two and both are 16+?

Yes, as far as I know is illegal to have pilion passenger.
Also illegal to operate an e-bike that can be operated by throttle and without pedalling.

Because as soon as the above capability exists then according to current laws it’s not an e-bicycle it’s an e-motorcycle.

And if it’s an e-motorcycle then you need to have a motorcycle license to drive it on the road.
I think that a high school student would be very unlikely to have a motorbike license.

Motorcycles also need to be registered.

As always it’s confusing because the laws differ between states a bit.
And as we have seen recently in SA, the laws do change. For better or worse.