Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[am50em]

It's a pity the Australian government refuses to learn from other countries in this regard.

Yes, the government needs to invest in cycling infrastructure noth on road and off like other countries. This will encourage cycling and normalise it.

Maybe this will help

The Cycling Paradise is actually two books in one, by two authors. The first showcases Holland as a cycling paradise.

https://www.holland-cycling.com/blog/30 ... g-paradise

[brumby33]

I came across this You Tube Video today which came out only 6 days ago in regards to wearing Helmets. titled "I don't usually wear a helmet, am I an idiot"?
It is and American Video and just over half an hour along, they also recognise Australia making it mandatory, the You Tuber known as Shifter interviews Cailynn Kingbeil who has a number of stats that are mostly American/ Canadian but can also mean a lot to our situation as well.
Poses some very interesting questions....
So make a cuppa, have a watch and listen as it's mostly a talking video, I found it rather interesting and I really think this mandatory BS needs to be stopped.

https://youtu.be/rhzH6mEpIps


cheers

brumby33

[P!N20]

^ Yeah, that's what kicked this thread off again: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31309&start=10875#p1578984

[brumby33]

^ Yeah, that's what kicked this thread off again: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31309&start=10875#p1578984

Oh bugger....I must've missed that post...didn't realise it was the one that kicked off this robust discussion....I'm sorry, I didn't realise this video link was posted before....please disregard my prior post.

Cheers


brumby33

[am50em]

Actually makes it a good place to end this thread for now.
Full circle.

[DavidS]

I am disagreeing that cycling is always a safe activity.
The hospital admission rates for injured cyclists confirm that.
It can be, but mix it with motor traffic and no it is not.

I made that quite clear in the post you removed that sentence from.
I suggest you also learn to read the post and don't attribute your own reasons.

I have also said I don't support MHLs multiple times.

What I do object to are anti-,helmet law participants sprouting baseless claims as arguments.
2 of them being cycling is always safe and helmets provide no protection.

Cyclists ride with "motor traffic" in just about every country in the world without the need for governments to mandate safety equipment. We did it here for decades, decades when the road toll was much higher, decades when cars handled worse and had rubbish brakes.

How come it is safe elsewhere but apparently for Australian cyclists it is not safe?

Do we have worse cyclists here, are we more dangerous than cyclists overseas? If not, how come it is fine to ride with motorised vehicles overseas without a helmet but not here?

You can make the claim that riding with motor traffic is so unsafe we need to wear a helmet, but I disagree. Yes, there are accidents, but there are accidents in all sorts of contexts in our lives. You can live in a padded cell if you really want to be totally safe, I choose not to.

What makes cycling on the roads so damned dangerous, in Australian in particular, we are forced to wear a helmet? If it is so dangerous why do we only protect the head? Maybe we should mandate full body armour.

DS

[P!N20]

Maybe we should mandate full body armour.

[warthog1]

I am disagreeing that cycling is always a safe activity.
The hospital admission rates for injured cyclists confirm that.
It can be, but mix it with motor traffic and no it is not.

I made that quite clear in the post you removed that sentence from.
I suggest you also learn to read the post and don't attribute your own reasons.

I have also said I don't support MHLs multiple times.

What I do object to are anti-,helmet law participants sprouting baseless claims as arguments.
2 of them being cycling is always safe and helmets provide no protection.

Cyclists ride with "motor traffic" in just about every country in the world without the need for governments to mandate safety equipment. We did it here for decades, decades when the road toll was much higher, decades when cars handled worse and had rubbish brakes.

How come it is safe elsewhere but apparently for Australian cyclists it is not safe?

Do we have worse cyclists here, are we more dangerous than cyclists overseas? If not, how come it is fine to ride with motorised vehicles overseas without a helmet but not here?

You can make the claim that riding with motor traffic is so unsafe we need to wear a helmet, but I disagree. Yes, there are accidents, but there are accidents in all sorts of contexts in our lives. You can live in a padded cell if you really want to be totally safe, I choose not to.

What makes cycling on the roads so damned dangerous, in Australian in particular, we are forced to wear a helmet? If it is so dangerous why do we only protect the head? Maybe we should mandate full body armour.

DS

You said cycling was safe. I disagree that it is always so.
I provided examples of 2 cyclists that were killed, one known by my son, one by myself. Killed by drivers of motorvehicles.
Apparently that was anecdotal.
So I posted some information showing cyclist hospital admission rates.
They are high.
I was merely correcting BS not arguing for mandatory helmet laws.


There has also been information posted correcting the BS claim that helmets provide no protection.

[brumby33]

I'm more concerned about damaging my prosthetic hip than smashing my head when coming off by bicycle. Considering the overall weight of a bike averaging only about 10-14kilos compared to say a Motorcycle which weights over 200 plus kilos. One of the reasons I sold my motorcycle is, if I ever came off that thing, I ain't gonna bounce well at high speed and whilst i love motorcycles, I prefer to take my chances on a bicycle where the weight of the bicycle won't slam me down on the road like a motorcycle would.
If anyone should wear helmets, it would be car drivers, many of them who are involved in serious accidents are usually suffering with bad head injuries after being crumpled in their tin cans. Hardly a day goes by where you don't see on the 6 O'clock news that a car has run into a house/shop/ over the side of car parks etc.

I just believe that this NSW State Government has held onto the crippling fines $319 for not wearing an esky lid. A head is only 10% of a human body that can be seriously injured, irrespective of the mode of transport.
If in a busy environment, I would still wear my helmet but if riding on quiet back streets , bicycle paths, down to the shops of a friend's place, I think as an adult, I can decide for myself whether to wear a helmet or not.

[g-boaf]

This is all getting far too heated.

Time to take a break and ride a bike?

[find_bruce]

Mod Says: this can be an emotional topic on which people can and do disagree. Please remember that it's our love of cycling that unites us & avoid responding in a pointed and personal way.

[MichaelB]

...
You said cycling was safe. I disagree that it is always so.
...

To clarify that cycling IS NOT safe is as per the definition ...

protected from or not exposed to danger or risk; not likely to be harmed or lost.

Becuase injury/death rate is low/lower than some other aspects, does not make it safe !

[warthog1]

This is all getting far too heated.

Time to take a break and ride a bike?

Good idea.

Shite weather again here.
Might have to set up the trainer at home as it is supposed to be so for a week

[Gordonhooker]

weather is not conducive to riding my bike at the moment - bummer

[warthog1]

I'm more concerned about damaging my prosthetic hip than smashing my head when coming off by bicycle. Considering the overall weight of a bike averaging only about 10-14kilos compared to say a Motorcycle which weights over 200 plus kilos. One of the reasons I sold my motorcycle is, if I ever came off that thing, I ain't gonna bounce well at high speed and whilst i love motorcycles, I prefer to take my chances on a bicycle where the weight of the bicycle won't slam me down on the road like a motorcycle would.
If anyone should wear helmets, it would be car drivers, many of them who are involved in serious accidents are usually suffering with bad head injuries after being crumpled in their tin cans. Hardly a day goes by where you don't see on the 6 O'clock news that a car has run into a house/shop/ over the side of car parks etc.

I would still be concerned about hip injury from any fall.
#9 ribs, clavicle, scapula and public rami falling from my bicycle. Bone density declines with age
GB fractured his hip in a slow speed bicycle fall.
Not saying don't ride, just advocating caution.

I just believe that this NSW State Government has held onto the crippling fines $319 for not wearing an esky lid. A head is only 10% of a human body that can be seriously injured, irrespective of the mode of transport.
If in a busy environment, I would still wear my helmet but if riding on quiet back streets , bicycle paths, down to the shops of a friend's place, I think as an adult, I can decide for myself whether to wear a helmet or not.

I think we all agree with that.

[BobtheBuilder]

Becuase injury/death rate is low/lower than some other aspects, does not make it safe !

By this definition I can't imagine any activity can be classed as safe! Can you name one?

Even sleeping. People fall out of bed and sometimes sustain serious injuries.

But a commonsense definition would say cycling, in and of itself, is safe.

Some types of riding, in some types of environments, i.e. high-speed mountain-biking or high-speed road riding without a mirror in heavy, high-speed traffic, are more risky, but cycling in and of itself is largely a safe activity.

[warthog1]

But the evidence indicates otherwise

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/injury/ ... ns/summary


In 2015–16, about 12,000 Australians were hospitalised for a pedal cycle-related injury representing 1 in 5 injury hospitalisations from land transport crashes.

https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafet ... ery%20year.

Deaths and Injuries

Nearly 1,000 bicyclists die and over 130,000 are injured in crashes that occur on roads in the United States every year.

[MichaelB]

Becuase injury/death rate is low/lower than some other aspects, does not make it safe !

By this definition I can't imagine any activity can be classed as safe! Can you name one?
...

Even eating can kill you ! Better stop that then ....

[MichaelB]

But the evidence indicates otherwise

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/injury/ ... ns/summary


In 2015–16, about 12,000 Australians were hospitalised for a pedal cycle-related injury representing 1 in 5 injury hospitalisations from land transport crashes.

https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafet ... ery%20year.

Deaths and Injuries

Nearly 1,000 bicyclists die and over 130,000 are injured in crashes that occur on roads in the United States every year.

Yeah, but that's anecdotes Warty ....

Oh yeah, but helmets have nothing to do with that ....

Sorry, now I'm getting silly, sorry ....

[brumby33]

Becuase injury/death rate is low/lower than some other aspects, does not make it safe !

By this definition I can't imagine any activity can be classed as safe! Can you name one?
...

Even eating can kill you ! Better stop that then ....

WHAT!!!!!! .......I'm so distraught

[DavidS]

But the evidence indicates otherwise

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/injury/ ... ns/summary


In 2015–16, about 12,000 Australians were hospitalised for a pedal cycle-related injury representing 1 in 5 injury hospitalisations from land transport crashes.

https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafet ... ery%20year.

Deaths and Injuries

Nearly 1,000 bicyclists die and over 130,000 are injured in crashes that occur on roads in the United States every year.

Hospitalisation rates rising, while we have MHLs, clearly the helmets are not working.

Only 58% of these injuries are on road, so it isn't so much sharing the road with motor vehicles which is the problem. I suspect most cycling is on road.

If you really want to wear a helmet then don't take it off when you leave the road.

38 cyclists a year die, 1 death is too many, but in 2021/22 338 people drowned. The case for compulsory life jackets near a body of water would seem stronger but somehow swimming and playing in the water is considered safe and cycling isn't?

You can't just cite numbers without some comparison.

DS

[warthog1]

But the evidence indicates otherwise

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/injury/ ... ns/summary


In 2015–16, about 12,000 Australians were hospitalised for a pedal cycle-related injury representing 1 in 5 injury hospitalisations from land transport crashes.

https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafet ... ery%20year.

Deaths and Injuries

Nearly 1,000 bicyclists die and over 130,000 are injured in crashes that occur on roads in the United States every year.

Hospitalisation rates rising, while we have MHLs, clearly the helmets are not working.

Only 58% of these injuries are on road, so it isn't so much sharing the road with motor vehicles which is the problem. I suspect most cycling is on road.

If you really want to wear a helmet then don't take it off when you leave the road.

38 cyclists a year die, 1 death is too many, but in 2021/22 338 people drowned. The case for compulsory life jackets near a body of water would seem stronger but somehow swimming and playing in the water is considered safe and cycling isn't?

You can't just cite numbers without some comparison.

DS

You have cited the drowning deaths previously.
I answered.
Again ;

How many people enter the water as opposed to cycle.
How many infants cycle, how many aged and infirm cycle.
Vast differences between the percentage of people who cycle vs those who swim and bathe. Everybody needs to wash themselves. A vanishingly small percentage regularly cycle in comparison.

0-4 year olds are by far the biggest portion of drownings.
https://viz.aihw.gov.au/t/Public/views/ ... share_link
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/injury/ ... submersion


58% of 12000 is 6960.
90% of those who died were the result of an on road crash.
Sure, cycling on the road is stunningly safe.

You can't just make unsupported claims and then complain when evidence is provided that is contrary.

[fat and old]

38 cyclists a year die, 1 death is too many, but in 2021/22 338 people drowned. The case for compulsory life jackets near a body of water would seem stronger but somehow swimming and playing in the water is considered safe and cycling isn't?

You can't just cite numbers without some comparison.

DS

Nor can you throw out comparisons without facts.

As Warthog points out, the age group at most risk are <4yo. In swimming pools and baths.

So the Victorian government has mandated fencing around private swimming pools. Queensland has this as well as CPR charts being displayed nearby. Public swimming pools have lifeguards, as do many popular swimming beaches. You’ve seen those flags on the beach? Stay between them cos outside of them it isn’t safe!.

Different activities attract different methods of state imposed risk mitigation. Just because swimming doesn’t attract the most onerous version in your eyes doesn’t mean there are none at all.

[DavidS]

I said safe, not stunningly safe, but go ahead and put words in my mouth, desperation is the usual tactic of those who either support MHLs or claim they don't while attempting to refute all the arguments against these silly laws.

6,960 hospitalisations is too many but that's from a hell of a lot of bicycles on the road every day. The probability remains very low that you will be hospitalised when riding on road.

Not to mention the bleedingly obvious - all these hospitalisations, when everyone has to wear a helmet. Citing injury numbers and claiming that riding on roads is unsafe unless you are wearing a helmet, when just about everyone riding on the roads is already wearing a helmet, just makes no sense. Do these helmet things really offer any protection - your own argument is convincing me more and more that they are utterly useless.

In any case, if riding a road vehicle on the road is so unsafe, why is the supposed solution to require safety equipment rather than requiring that the roads are safe for road vehicles?

DS

[g-boaf]

Some of the back and forwards arguments here are quite disingenuous.