Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

It may have more relevance in the city. Where I ride, on rural country roads, I see it doing zip. Don't see it working in any of the places I've worked and lived outside of Melbourne.
Some are distracted, impatient, aggressive, incompetent or a combination of a number of them. I see the results at work and I see/experience it whilst cycling.
It aint fixing that and it isn't bringing more cyclists to the roads out here.
It will be positive for utility cyclists sure, but the average roadie, particularly those away from population centres, I don't see it.

warthog1 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:03 am

It will be positive for utility cyclists sure, but the average roadie, particularly those away from population centres, I don't see it.

ANd that's the interesting thing that you notice when you travel overseas, and compare the user population demographics to what you see here.

Here, nearly all cyclists you see are roadies or fast commuters. Overseas in 2016, in three weeks spread across Germany and Italy I saw just ONE roadie in Lycra(tm) and a helmet, early on a Sunday morning, who had been in the Tuscany hills behind Florence.

Every. Other. Single. Rider was just an ordinary citizen going about their day using a bicycle, not because they are enthusiasts like us, but because it is the most convenient and the easiest to use method of getting around.

It is that entire demographic that has been "disappeared" from the Australian community by the enthusiastic enforcement of MHLs.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:19 am

warthog1 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:03 am

It will be positive for utility cyclists sure, but the average roadie, particularly those away from population centres, I don't see it.

ANd that's the interesting thing that you notice when you travel overseas, and compare the user population demographics to what you see here.

Here, nearly all cyclists you see are roadies or fast commuters. Overseas in 2016, in three weeks spread across Germany and Italy I saw just ONE roadie in Lycra(tm) and a helmet, early on a Sunday morning, who had been in the Tuscany hills behind Florence.

Every. Other. Single. Rider was just an ordinary citizen going about their day using a bicycle, not because they are enthusiasts like us, but because it is the most convenient and the easiest to use method of getting around.

It is that entire demographic that has been "disappeared" from the Australian community by the enthusiastic enforcement of MHLs.

Sure, I don't disagree. It would be good to see that popularity return.
Removal of the helmet law would certainly help.

I have not done much overseas travel.
I have however cycled with some former procyclists who have cycled overseas.
Europe is universally declared as excellent from a roadie perspective.
With the exception of the UK which is not. The US is not spoken of highly either.
Not that I am ever likely to set foot in that country.

Sure I see removal of the law as positive for utility cyclists.
It won't change much for myself or those I cycle with and call my friends.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't go but how?

warthog1 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:10 pm

Sure I see removal of the law as positive for utility cyclists.
It won't change much for myself or those I cycle with and call my friends.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't go but how?

Repealing MHLs isn’t meant to do much for serious cyclists. They’ll keep wearing gloves, Lycra, lock in shoes .. and helmets. I’d still choose a helmet for commuting, MTB and any sort of distance road ride.

I think our society has come far enough with safety culture and helmets have been round long enough they will still be popular for cycling enthusiasts .

Not keeping helmets compulsory for all riders is a good start. Similar to NT: pathway and streets 50km/h or below and adults have a choice, fines relaxed (or abandoned) and enforcement all but forgotten.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:19 am

warthog1 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:03 am

It will be positive for utility cyclists sure, but the average roadie, particularly those away from population centres, I don't see it.

ANd that's the interesting thing that you notice when you travel overseas, and compare the user population demographics to what you see here.

Here, nearly all cyclists you see are roadies or fast commuters. Overseas in 2016, in three weeks spread across Germany and Italy I saw just ONE roadie in Lycra(tm) and a helmet, early on a Sunday morning, who had been in the Tuscany hills behind Florence.

Every. Other. Single. Rider was just an ordinary citizen going about their day using a bicycle, not because they are enthusiasts like us, but because it is the most convenient and the easiest to use method of getting around.

It is that entire demographic that has been "disappeared" from the Australian community by the enthusiastic enforcement of MHLs.

Same experience tg

Why are posters that are either pro helmet (note, not pro MHLs. I don’t believe there’s anyone here that’s pro MHL) or questioning an anti MHL statement held to a higher standard of proof or research than the vocal anti MHL group? Why so insecure?

fat and old wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:37 am

Why are posters that are either pro helmet (note, not pro MHLs. I don’t believe there’s anyone here that’s pro MHL) or questioning an anti MHL statement held to a higher standard of proof or research than the vocal anti MHL group? Why so insecure?

Indeed - insecure - My guess because they have no answers other than it is just about the personal - I dont like helmets so... in real sit down discussions with Govt about all things biking, have seen it when the heavy duty anti lot start to speak.... it is just like the current anti vax / mask crowd - all about me - and more or less every one in the room starts to close the folder as it is the beginning of the end of the good or bad meeting. No good every comes from it as it is unstructured theories and not the basic - "maybe" it was necessary back then, but is not such a good law going forward so.....
"Real" bike advocates like the two past president of Bike NSW will cuss about the law in private when say out on rides but they understand that any chatter about MHL will change the tone of a meeting to turn hostile.

In this very forum discussion - the anti mob see it as two camps, solidarity or if you are agnostic, you are pro MHL. So insecure, yup agree.

as an off track and as this topic has phoenixed, have had the past few days behind the desk and been looking out at people biking past* - my 10 am till 2 pm count yesterday, and when I cared to look was 32 people riding past with 8 people wearing a helmet ( of that 8, 4 were kiddes, 2 plus 70 year olds on ebikes and the last 2 in a group of 4 teen boys riding fast doing wheelies on mtn bikes) the ages range from about about 4 to 80 -

* have a shared bike path on the other side of the road leading to the beach AND... is flat with no curb and guttering so when people on bikes have plenty of room to drift off the road when you hear that hoon coming up from behind.
Also the around the block local primary school bike racks are often full here - but I wont be taking photos as that would be odd, but should do a school day bike count - will see

So do we really have a real MHL or just something that is occasionally policed and already fading away as infrastructure gets better and more people are biking anyway

AND... in the real world

E-Bikers Ride Much Farther and More Frequently Than Regular Bikers

They are not 'cheating,' but are serious transportation.

Lloyd Alter August 31, 2020 10:21AM EDT

https://www.treehugger.com/e-bikers-rid ... rs-5076231

The people who bought e-bikes increased their bicycle use from 2.1 kilometers (1.3 miles) to 9.2 kilometers (5.7 miles) on average per day; a 340% increase. The e-bike's share of all their transportation increased dramatically too; from 17% to 49%, where they e-biked instead of walking, taking public transit, and driving.

E-bikes are increasingly turning into an essential part of the urban transport system, and can be an important contribution to reducing environmental impact from transport by shifting people away from motorized transport....We find that the increased cycling is not just a novelty effect, but appears to be more lasting. Our study thus indicates that policy makers can expect a positive return of policy measures aimed at increasing the uptake of e-bikes.

What I find funny is that Australia is in the minority yet many people argue as though MHLs are normal. MHLs are not a worldwide phenomena. Surely people arguing that they are good should be held to a higher standard when the whole world seemingly disagrees with them. Anyway, since we are playing anecdotes, yesterday I rode 10km to the office without a helmet on and saw about 15 people wearing helmets - about 8 of them were on road bikes in full gear, the other 7 were on sleek folding bikes and also kitted out. I also saw about 200 people who were not wearing helmets and who were on a variety of bikes from fixies to tandems. Obviously I am not currently in Australia as I never see 200 people riding without helmets or even riding bicycles on a normal day in Australia.

Everything not green has a helmet law of some type.



Looks pretty world-wide to me.

And add Cyprus, too

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:17 am

Everything not green has a helmet law of some type.



Looks pretty world-wide to me.

And add Cyprus, too

Really? I must be colour blind. I can only see a few patches of red in a sea of green. Mandatory helmet laws for bicycle riders of all ages in all public areas are NOT common.

Does the below sound in anyway similar to our Australian laws where we have huge fines and strict enforcement?

"Article 63-11 of the Road Traffic Act requires that persons responsible for children under 13 must ensure that the children wear helmets. However, there is no penalty associated with this article."

tpcycle wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:38 am

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:17 am

Everything not green has a helmet law of some type.



Looks pretty world-wide to me.

And add Cyprus, too

Really? I must be colour blind. I can only see a few patches of red in a sea of green. Mandatory helmet laws for bicycle riders of all ages in all public areas are NOT common.

Does the below sound in anyway similar to our Australian laws where we have huge fines and strict enforcement?

"Article 63-11 of the Road Traffic Act requires that persons responsible for children under 13 must ensure that the children wear helmets. However, there is no penalty associated with this article."

Read the post.

I pointed out the prevalence of helmet laws world wide. I did not claim they were all 100% mandatory, nor did I claim that every country/state enforces the law or indeed have penalties. Fact remains that each and every coloured country or state has a law that states that somebody (usually children under 15 or cyclists in particular areas) or everybody must wear a helmet.

That's a far cry from the usual "Only 3 countries in the world" mantra we are beaten with every time this discussion rises from the dead. Maybe when discussing helmet laws some accuracy in statements would be in order? Your description of

Mandatory helmet laws for bicycle riders of all ages in all public areas

is closer to the mark. Could be an honest mistake, and maybe many don't realise just how common these laws are world wide?

As for our "strict enforcement", I'd err on the side of baabaa here. At least in Melbourne. I see many cyclists without helmets about, especially the inner city getting around types. I believe the semi regular crack downs in NSW can be hardcore tho?

I'm neither Pro or Anti MHLs but if they were to relax that rule (probably never happen) I would still wear a helmet on most occassions.
I've came to the conclusion that it's not just the MHLs that are deterring cyclists but the fact that many don't feel safe helmet or not, the roads, the drivers, every time there's a cyclist knocked down by a moron driver, another few bikes get sent back to the nail in the shed....
Yeah infrastructure has definitely improved over the years but miles behind other Countries , Countries that have much colder and seasonal weather than we do but that doesn't seem to be too much a deterent because by not having helmet laws, they can wear what they want over their heads for warmth.
I think it's more a safety in regards to riding on roads is the matter rather than Helmets, I've often spoken to people about riding and the first things they've said is "i'm not riding a bike on the road with those homicidal maniacs in cars" Can't say I blame them, they can't always ride on bikeways as often they channel bikes back onto a public road with 60+ KPH speeds.

I think Lobbying to have the laws relaxed to get more people cycling would be great if it's attacked on the recent grounds of Climate change and the fact many people won't ride when it's wet or cold but if they can wear warm head gear like beanies and furry hoods that won't fit with helmets, or wet weather hoods etc, or full head coverings when it's Magpie season....laws should be relaxed, not removed and be decriminalised.
New NSW State election coming in March 2023, Labor will be wanting to take the job away from the Libs....nows the times for our State Cycling Bodies to get active.....and ol Dan looks like to romp in next Vic elections in Nov.

Probably won't matter....I'll still wear mine on the majority of occasions but would like the option to wear a beanie instead during Winter.

brumby33

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:17 am

Everything not green has a helmet law of some type.



Looks pretty world-wide to me.

And add Cyprus, too

I wonder how those colours correlate with cycling rates, cycling injury rates and motorisation of traffic.

Red in Aus is low cycling rate and traffic skewed/designed toward motorised types. Can’t comment on injury (particularly head injury) rates. I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that cycling has higher rates in Africa, Asia and South America and less motorisation.

Um on the basis of one observations - I used helmet more often in Sth America than here for two reasons
- the roads are pretty bad and the pot holes lead to the earths core.
- on rides it occurred to me that being that far out of mobile range and the rarity of seeing any other vehicle on the road meant that any sort of off with a slight head bump you could be out cold and stuck in a ditch for hours if not days without being seen and that was not such a good idea.
Other than that they have solid bike culture and like and respect all biking from lugging cargo to full on road racing types - you can see some pretty fancy bikes and the racers are the real deal. The range of driving is good to below feral.

The amount of sealed / tarred roads or even good dirt in Namibia are so rare that they are known locally on a first name basis...

And an update of my Saturday bike count should have said that it is a "village" of 1700 peoples so not a place of huge population but as a %.....
AND yesterday saw the regular bloke who churns up the local roads on a penny farthing - he wears a lid so that was one out of one (guessing that he has a Sherlock Holmes deerstalker underneath).

baabaa wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:14 pm

...

It's fascinating hearing about other countries' bike cultures. However, it's almost a completely separate question to the issue of the legislation and enforcement of laws criminalising the decision to ride without a helmet.

No-one I know - and especially not myself - is looking to stop people from wearing them if they feel it is appropriate. If I had my way and they were made optional again, I would continue to opt to wear one for 95% of my riding.

I would like us to adopt the Northern Territory model and make it optional when riding on off-road facilities.

Part of the reason for the political resistance to this is that politicians realise the demand for equity in the provision of safe cycling infrastructure would be loud and unstoppable, and they don't want to spend the money, despite it being a mere tiny fraction of the roads budget.

I'm not seeing more than 3 red countries on that map.

I'm still waiting for any evidence that helmets have improved the safety of cyclists.

I would be an outlier here, I ride to work every day and a fair bit of that is on roads and would not wear a helmet. It should be my choice, and in most countries it would be.

Funnily enough I actually see cycling as a healthy activity which improves my health, not a dangerous activity where I need safety equipment. Mandating helmets also gives the impression that cycling is far more dangerous than it actually is.

DS

DavidS wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:55 pm

I'm not seeing more than 3 red countries on that map.


DS

Dude....there's 8, and it hasn't added Cyprus, making 9!

New Zealand
Costa Rica
Argentina
Singapore
Namibia
Cyprus
UAE
Togo
Home

The rest of your quote I agree with.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:47 pm

It's fascinating hearing about other countries' bike cultures. However, it's almost a completely separate question to the issue of the legislation and enforcement of laws criminalising the decision to ride without a helmet.

Are you saying that using the experiences of other countries is a separate issue to that of MHL's in Australia? If so, why do people including yourself continually relate anecdotes of their time spent overseas watching people ride around without helmets? Why are the facts and stats of countries other than Australia used to argue against MHL's? Am I missing something?

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:17 am

Everything not green has a helmet law of some type.



Looks pretty world-wide to me.

And add Cyprus, too

The operative phrase being

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:17 am

of some type.

This is not a thread about 'helmet laws' it's a thread about 'mandatory helmet laws' in Australia - that is mandatory helmets for everyone.

Do your pretty colours again and see how it turns out.

BobtheBuilder wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:57 am

The operative phrase being

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:17 am

of some type.

Correct. Helmet laws of some type. I am not misrepresenting anything there Bob. Above board, no ambiguity

BTB wrote:This is not a thread about 'helmet laws' it's a thread about 'mandatory helmet laws' in Australia - that is mandatory helmets for everyone.

Aye? Just last Friday, when pulling Warty up on some point you stated

This thread is called "Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)".

in order to make your point that he was off track (which he wasn't, by the very definition you provided).

The operative phrase being "Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)".

No mention of Australia, nor those they affect, just MHL's and stuff.

fat and old wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:58 am

DavidS wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:55 pm

I'm not seeing more than 3 red countries on that map.


DS

Dude....there's 8, and it hasn't added Cyprus, making 9!

New Zealand
Costa Rica
Argentina
Singapore
Namibia
Cyprus
UAE
Togo
Home

The rest of your quote I agree with.

Um, are you saying that Singapore has an all ages in all public areas mandatory helmet law like Australia? Don't think so.

tpcycle wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:32 am

fat and old wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:58 am

DavidS wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:55 pm

I'm not seeing more than 3 red countries on that map.


DS

Dude....there's 8, and it hasn't added Cyprus, making 9!

New Zealand
Costa Rica
Argentina
Singapore
Namibia
Cyprus
UAE
Togo
Home

The rest of your quote I agree with.

Um, are you saying that Singapore has an all ages in all public areas mandatory helmet law like Australia? Don't think so.

So says the site I pulled the map from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_h ... by_country

If that's wrong I'm happy to stand corrected

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:19 am

That's a far cry from the usual "Only 3 countries in the world" mantra we are beaten with every time this discussion rises from the dead. Maybe when discussing helmet laws some accuracy in statements would be in order?

Yes that is always the case.
I expected that picture would cause some consternation. As it is a favourite cry.

fat and old wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:09 am

If that's wrong I'm happy to stand corrected

I* will have a go as they did change and are pretty harsh on all road use not just biking.

https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltagov/e ... -2019.html

[b]Mandatory Use of Helmets by Cyclists on Roads[/b]

5. Under the new rules, it will be mandatory for all cyclists to wear helmets when riding on roads. This is for their own safety as cyclists are more vulnerable compared to other vehicles on roads. Those caught riding bicycles and power-assisted bicycles on roads without wearing a helmet can be fined up to $1,000 and/or jailed up to three months upon conviction for the first offence.

6. The mandatory helmet rule, however, will not apply to cyclists who are crossing the road to get from one public path to another. While the use of helmets is not compulsory on public paths, such cyclists and personal mobility devices (PMDs) riders are still strongly advised to put on helmets for their own safety.

So now lets spend the next 87 pages nit picking the word - "mandatory"

* Have not biked in Singapore

fat and old wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:09 am

tpcycle wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:32 am

fat and old wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:58 am

Dude....there's 8, and it hasn't added Cyprus, making 9!

New Zealand
Costa Rica
Argentina
Singapore
Namibia
Cyprus
UAE
Togo
Home

The rest of your quote I agree with.

Um, are you saying that Singapore has an all ages in all public areas mandatory helmet law like Australia? Don't think so.

So says the site I pulled the map from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_h ... by_country

If that's wrong I'm happy to stand corrected

It is wrong. The law is much like the NT. It only applies to riding a bicycle on the road not on footpaths, park connectors or bicycle paths or any other off road area. 1000s if not 10,000s of people ride bicycles every weekend and public holiday on the park connectors and basically no one wears helmets - apart from a handful of "serious" cyclists. Also the police are not particularly interested in enforcing it.

(I have biked a lot in Singapore).