Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

In the 4 plus weeks since coming to Japan, in particular the Tokyo/ Chiba region I've only seen 2 helmets and they were both food delivery drivers.
Delivery here in Japan is something else, fresh fruits and pickles from all over the country delivered fresh the next morning.

Bicycles are very much a part of Japanese life, no helmets required, local speed limits are 30kph and is why many people drive the little boxy Kei cars, 650cc turbo motors that are usually hybrid and get 27 kms per litre which is around the old 60 miles per US gallon.

No side road parking, must be in registered or paid parking lots.

People freely ride on sidewalk, lots of over 80s still cycle to shop every day.

I could easily live here only i'm sick of rice

brumby33 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:03 pm

In the 4 plus weeks since coming to Japan, in particular the Tokyo/ Chiba region I've only seen 2 helmets and they were both food delivery drivers.
Delivery here in Japan is something else, fresh fruits and pickles from all over the country delivered fresh the next morning.

Bicycles are very much a part of Japanese life, no helmets required, local speed limits are 30kph and is why many people drive the little boxy Kei cars, 650cc turbo motors that are usually hybrid and get 27 kms per litre which is around the old 60 miles per US gallon.

No side road parking, must be in registered or paid parking lots.

People freely ride on sidewalk, lots of over 80s still cycle to shop every day.

I could easily live here only i'm sick of rice

Yeah ... see.. it wouldn't work here. We're different. We don't have enough rice.

But but but, rest, ice, compression and elevation is at least 83% of my life credo!

Comedian wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:56 pm

brumby33 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:03 pm

In the 4 plus weeks since coming to Japan, in particular the Tokyo/ Chiba region I've only seen 2 helmets and they were both food delivery drivers.
Delivery here in Japan is something else, fresh fruits and pickles from all over the country delivered fresh the next morning.

Bicycles are very much a part of Japanese life, no helmets required, local speed limits are 30kph and is why many people drive the little boxy Kei cars, 650cc turbo motors that are usually hybrid and get 27 kms per litre which is around the old 60 miles per US gallon.

No side road parking, must be in registered or paid parking lots.

People freely ride on sidewalk, lots of over 80s still cycle to shop every day.

I could easily live here only i'm sick of rice

Yeah ... see.. it wouldn't work here. We're different. We don't have enough rice.

can't see that being the problem with one of the highest rice eating populations outside maintream Asia.

But seriously it's a totally different mindset, all Japanese or even non-Japanese must do a license review every 5 years based on a persons birthdate.
They also must sit through a half hour video all about road rules and any changes to rules before they are issued with their fresh new license.
Back in the land of the Kangaroo, drivers get their drivers license at 17, no vidoes, no refreshers till we are in our graves.
People holding licences for more than 60 years and never been reviewed till they reach 85 then they need to sit a test.

Japanese road system is narrow and in holiday time in mountain resorts, theres no shortage of cars lining up for kms, no agro, just take it in their stride bikes do better and are quicker in most cases.

It's rare to see any road rage or bullying by any motorist here.

I feel it'll take many generations to change this mindset back home in Australia.

No side road parking, must be in registered or paid parking lots.

We really should have this here. We have enough road space if cars were removed.

am50em wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:20 pm

No side road parking, must be in registered or paid parking lots.

We really should have this here. We have enough road space if cars were removed.

And boats, trailers, skip bins and the 6.7 litre HEAVY DUTY Ram utes that you need to carry a dog (must be washed down before being allowed to sit in the spotless clean tray) and two bags of grocery shopping in the back.
But yes this is why Jaapnese cars are so small as you need to park them off road when they sit parked, like most cars do almost all of the time - and the cost of rego is also much cheaper for kei cars - and keijidōsha trucks with less than 1000cc engines

brumby33 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:38 pm

Japanese road system is narrow and in holiday time in mountain resorts, theres no shortage of cars lining up for kms, no agro, just take it in their stride bikes do better and are quicker in most cases.

It's rare to see any road rage or bullying by any motorist here.

I feel it'll take many generations to change this mindset back home in Australia.

Generations? Japan has what...5 or 600 years of feudal history that ensured absolute compliance or death behind it? We have 250 years of being a penal colony that morphed into a free society with a healthy lack of respect for institutions that has attracted like minded individuals for the last 150 years.

We are different. Every Nation on Earth is different.

We also have anti-cyclist sentiment propagated by our media and a number of our talk back radio hosts, of which newscorp is a major proponent.
Witness the negative feedback anytime road cycling is mentioned.
I don't see it changing anytime soon.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:35 pm

This experiment has already been done in Australia and the results are in. When mandatory helmet laws in the Northern Territory were relaxed in line with the above non-risk scenarios, due to the disproportionate impact the laws were having on indigenous youth incarceration rates, cycling participation rates bounced back and persistently remain the highest in the country.

On this....there's no question that participation rates are up in the NT. I don't think anybody would dispute that.

So what?

All of the arguments based on participation rates merely make a messy issue even messier. TG has recognised that the reason for the relaxation of MHL's in the NT was the effect on Indigenous youth. It had nothing to do with participation rates or safety. If you live elsewhere, unless you're going to convince Lydia Thorpe to get on board the idea would be to convince those who influence the laws or the land that SAFETY has gone up, or at least remained consistant with the MHL period. No one outside of cycling gives two hoots about participation rates. They care about safety, because they will be judged on that

The politicians are all terrified of the optics when the first person crashes and suffers a brain injury, regardless of all the "early deaths prevented by all that cycling" (to quote the Danish government tweet on the 26 early deaths vs 6,000 early deaths prevented).

So what are the injury rates pre and post relaxation of MHL's in the NT? Maybe use that?

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:56 pm

No one outside of cycling gives two hoots about participation rates. They care about safety, because they will be judged on that

I'll bite - what's the safety rate of a sedentary lifestyle which only involves passive transport?

In Australia every week a kid gets killed by being run over at home - but its not on a road so doesn't appear on the road safety statistics

How many people died from Covid that could have been avoided if wearing a mask remained mandatory?

The reality is that people say they care about safety, but not in a meaningful way.

find_bruce wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:23 pm

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:56 pm

No one outside of cycling gives two hoots about participation rates. They care about safety, because they will be judged on that

I'll bite - what's the safety rate of a sedentary lifestyle which only involves passive transport?

^^^ This. It's the unintended consequence of mandatory helmet *laws* suppressing cycling.

Because you can't readily identify being driven, not cycling as a way of getting around as the proximate cause of an emergency department admission, it doesn't motivate trauma surgeons and the like to agitate for measures to improve cycling uptake.

find_bruce wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:23 pm

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:56 pm

No one outside of cycling gives two hoots about participation rates. They care about safety, because they will be judged on that

I'll bite - what's the safety rate of a sedentary lifestyle which only involves passive transport?

In Australia every week a kid gets killed by being run over at home - but its not on a road so doesn't appear on the road safety statistics

How many people died from Covid that could have been avoided if wearing a mask remained mandatory?

The answer to that? Who cares?

Who cares? Outside of those directly affected, no-one cares. I think you, TG and I are in furious agreement on that. And perhaps I used the wrong words there....."They care about safety, because they will be judged on that". I'm trying to look for something more attention grabbing than Participation Rates and Passive Transport consequences. Because no one cares about those things. The argument earlier (and used by you just now) was that the feds allowed us to make our own decisions on masking up. Why is that? Perhaps cos the people that'll die don't matter to the powers that be? Because the Corona will be doing them a financial favour in the long run? When was the last time we had confronting pictures of people in plastic tents or with tubes down their throat? No one cares about the Corona anymore. So maybe if it can be shown that relaxing MHL's has led to no difference (or even a reduction) in head injuries that argument can be used? Surely it's worth having a simple, direct answer to the "it's safer" argument?

Otherwise, jump onto the Indigenous bandwagon and get Thorpe on the case. I'm not kidding there. Somehow link persecution of Indigenous kids to MHL's in Victoria, NSW and other states. It worked for the NT. It's topical, it's attention grabbing, it's probably the best bet.

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:56 pm

So what are the injury rates pre and post relaxation of MHL's in the NT? Maybe use that?

There was no difference. MHLs - or their absence - made no difference to injury rates.

From https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1114.html
Effect on casualties

"In 2001, only 75 cyclists were hospitalised – the lowest number pro-rata population for any Australian state or territory. (ABC, 2004)

"For most road users, the Northern Territory has the worst injury rate in Australia. The sole exception is cyclists, for whom the serious injury rate is the same as the national average and better than several states where helmet use remains mandatory for all cycling. (Berry and Harrison, 2008)"

See also this page on cycling rates and injury rates - http://www.cycle-helmets.com/northern-t ... ation.html

MHL was relaxed decades ago in the NT (in fact full-strength MHL was only in effect from 1992 to 1994!). I got done once when I crossed a deserted road and got pulled up by a nob cop. I paid the $25 fine (https://nt.gov.au/driving/driving-offen ... -penalties), but lodged an official police complaint and the senior officer who dealt with my complaint only just stopped short of openly saying the inexperienced (and rude) young copper who issued the fine was in the wrong.

There was an issue of racial targeting of vulnerable youth with the application of MHL in the NT, but there was also a broader reaction against a stupid law.
Also from: http://www.cycle-helmets.com/northern-t ... ation.html (this also shows our cycling rates are higher than any other jurisdiction)
"However, following a public petition signed by an estimated 8% of the territory's population, the law was repealed in March 1994 for adults cycling on footpaths and cycle paths."

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:31 pm

Otherwise, jump onto the Indigenous bandwagon and get Thorpe on the case. I'm not kidding there. Somehow link persecution of Indigenous kids to MHL's in Victoria, NSW and other states. It worked for the NT. It's topical, it's attention grabbing, it's probably the best bet.

Way ahead of you - about 5 or 6 years ago I was having a chat with a pollie on the subject of arbitrary enforcement of road rules (not just MHL) on aboriginal people in NSW. When she responded "is that still happening" I went to get the stats to show it, only to discover they had stopped recording the information

find_bruce wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:14 pm

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:31 pm

Otherwise, jump onto the Indigenous bandwagon and get Thorpe on the case. I'm not kidding there. Somehow link persecution of Indigenous kids to MHL's in Victoria, NSW and other states. It worked for the NT. It's topical, it's attention grabbing, it's probably the best bet.

Way ahead of you - about 5 or 6 years ago I was having a chat with a pollie on the subject of arbitrary enforcement of road rules (not just MHL) on aboriginal people in NSW. When she responded "is that still happening" I went to get the stats to show it, only to discover they had stopped recording the information

It'd be kinda cynical, but hey, if it works.....

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:16 pm

It'd be kinda cynical, but hey, if it works.....

Yes I am cynical, but not in this case - part of the issue with road rules that have high fines but low enforcement is that they generally only get enforced if the cop doesn't like you & in country towns all too often that's because of the colour of your skin.

In the NT it was hard to hide because geography was enough of a giveaway.

fat and old wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:16 pm

It'd be kinda cynical, but hey, if it works.....

Yeah, it would be pretty cynical to leverage Aboriginal suffering for everyone's benefit. There are plenty of less polite words to describe it.

Let's just concentrate on how silly it is and change it from there.

I think, slowly, more and more people are shifting as the arguments get make over and over.

Anyone with an open mind can now find multiple, credible sources of comprehensive information that debunk the usefulness of MHL and clearly describe the harm it causes.

they dropped mask mandates for the same reason they don't enforce a lot of rules: too much like hard work.

If you have a mask mandate it means that lots of people have to confront non-mask-wearers and that was unpleasant for 16yo checkout chicks... And eventually cops had to get involved. Caused hassles for everyone and eventually it was decided that the hassle for all including cops wasn't worth it.

Cops don't enforce a lot of road rules because if they see it and ticket it, then there might be a court date which is time and money they don't want to spend. If they get told to do it as a political stunt they will (eg operation pedro) but generally they figure they have better things to do. They don't get told to do it on a regular basis because the pollies reckon they have better things to do too. Hence the political love of automated systems.

zebee wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:47 pm

Cops don't enforce a lot of road rules because if they see it and ticket it, then there might be a court date which is time and money they don't want to spend.

Cops get paid to go to court.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:47 pm

it doesn't motivate trauma surgeons and the like to agitate for measures to improve cycling uptake.

Trauma surgeons* are the primary cause of this whole fustercluck (yes, Virginia, we have the College of Surgeons to thank for MHL).

And they're at it again.
E-scooters help Australia's net-zero goals, but medics warn about long-term injuries
Short version: Trauma surgeon sees an increase in incidents involving e-things. Therefore "ban the e-things". Despite most of the patients being pissed young men not wearing (mandated in almost all states) helmets.

* these are THE poster child for people who are unaware of their biases and the limits of their expertise. Short version: they are educated to make decisions rapidly and be hyperconfident. They see all of (and only ) society's fnkups and, for all intents and purposes, don't "talk" (or rather "listen") to anyone outside their field.

Thoglette wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:38 pm

* these are THE poster child for people who are unaware of their biases and the limits of their expertise. Short version: they are educated to make decisions rapidly and be hyperconfident. They see all of (and only ) society's fnkups and, for all intents and purposes, don't "talk" (or rather "listen") to anyone outside their field.

I particularly love it* when they proclaim "this helmet saved your life" despite knowing two-tenths of nothing at all about helmet engineering or physics, nor the circumstances of the collision.

Potentially, that could be expanded to include orthopedic surgeons. They have a reputation for having a bit of a God complex.

My last three interactions:

The knee surgeon who operated unnecessarily when I went to him seeking advice. The operation fixed nothing. A $100 orthotic made by a physiotherapist fixed everything. Why? The surgeon was looking *only* at the knee. To him with a hammer...

The guy who repaired my shoulder, talking down to me and asserting I should stop mountain biking, I'm too old for that, to which my response was "this, from the guy who evidently thinks overeating and not exercising are risk-free?"

And then there's the guy I last got for dangerously close passing the rider ahead of me. Trying to make out that we had done the wrong thing for entering the roundabout from his right, when the traffic to our right was leaving the roundabout in the direction from which we'd come, and then trying to troll me for wearing lycra "at my age". The close pass took place a hundred metres later up the road.

When the traffic sergeant told me he was an orthopedic surgeon when relaying back the substance of their conversation, and how apologetic he (now) was, my thought was "ain't that a surprise "

*possible sarcasm detected

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:51 am

The guy who repaired my shoulder, talking down to me and asserting I should stop mountain biking, I'm too old for that, to which my response was "this, from the guy who evidently thinks overeating and not exercising are risk-free?"

How did he cope with that? I am assuming that was the conversation concluded?

warthog1 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:01 am

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:51 am

The guy who repaired my shoulder, talking down to me and asserting I should stop mountain biking, I'm too old for that, to which my response was "this, from the guy who evidently thinks overeating and not exercising are risk-free?"

How did he cope with that? I am assuming that was the conversation concluded?

Next follow-up appointment he had lost a lot of weight and taken up longboarding. There was even a chastened acknowledgement of my remarks.

He had previously represented the NSW Blues in first class rugby as a forward. I won't mention names as his repentance was genuine and he turned out to be a decent bloke. I doubt my remarks had a whole lot to do with that, I think he came to the realization on his own.

trailgumby wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:56 am

Next follow-up appointment he had lost a lot of weight and taken up longboarding. There was even a chastened acknowledgement of my remarks.

He had previously represented the NSW Blues in first class rugby as a forward. I won't mention names as his repentance was genuine and he turned out to be a decent bloke. I doubt my remarks had a whole lot to do with that, I think he came to the realization on his own.

That is good

BobtheBuilder wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:31 pm

]Yeah, it would be pretty cynical to leverage Aboriginal suffering for everyone's benefit. There are plenty of less polite words to describe it.

Let's just concentrate on how silly it is and change it from there.

I think, slowly, more and more people are shifting as the arguments get make over and over.

Anyone with an open mind can now find multiple, credible sources of comprehensive information that debunk the usefulness of MHL and clearly describe the harm it causes.

I agree - my point is that it seems to me that since Duncan Gay increased the helmet fine in NSW from $59 to $344, it is disproportionately enforced for First Nations people, particularly kids who cannot afford the fine

Those with long memories will recall the offensive language provisions which were abolished for the same reason