Page 428 of 474
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:53 pm
by tpcycle
outnabike wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:50 am
I can't count the occasions but that is a good reason to have a helmet on. Just in case.....
.
Isn't that how many people continue to justify this asinine law? If it saves just one life...
Much like the mandatory wearing of helmets in cars and mandatory wearing of life vests when swimming have saved lives. Um, why don't we have those? They look like good safety campaigns waiting to happen. And it's not like driving a car is in anyway a healthy activity - so there wouldn't be any unintended health consequences if we had MCHLs (C = car).
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:31 pm
by DavidS
Time for this video again:
Stupid law.
DS
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:54 am
by Comedian
DavidS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:31 pm
Time for this video again:
Stupid law.
DS
I actually know the people behind that video. I haven't spoken to them recently about it, but I'm pretty confident they have given up.
It's just not an issue that can be changed in Australia.
My take on it is that two groups of Australians make up about 99.5% of the country. They are either drivers or sports cyclists. Both of these groups support the law, or are at most ambivalent.
Which.. it is what it is. It's only really utility cyclists that understand why it's decimated utility cycling - and both of the above groups are completely convinced that even though it's not something that they don't have any experience of that the utility cyclists are just wrong. So the only thing left for them is to just get by as best they can, or move. The only satisfaction (that's probably not the right word) they will get is being able to laugh at governments and other groups failed attempts to try and get their populations to be healthier and more active by getting incidental exercise, and abate the climate crisis. Oh well.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:40 pm
by DavidS
Comedian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:54 am
DavidS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:31 pm
Time for this video again:
Stupid law.
DS
I actually know the people behind that video. I haven't spoken to them recently about it, but I'm pretty confident they have given up.
It's just not an issue that can be changed in Australia.
My take on it is that two groups of Australians make up about 99.5% of the country. They are either drivers or sports cyclists. Both of these groups support the law, or are at most ambivalent.
Which.. it is what it is. It's only really utility cyclists that understand why it's decimated utility cycling - and both of the above groups are completely convinced that even though it's not something that they don't have any experience of that the utility cyclists are just wrong. So the only thing left for them is to just get by as best they can, or move. The only satisfaction (that's probably not the right word) they will get is being able to laugh at governments and other groups failed attempts to try and get their populations to be healthier and more active by getting incidental exercise, and abate the climate crisis. Oh well.
Bloody depressing really.
DS
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:10 pm
by tpcycle
Comedian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:54 am
So the only thing left for them is to just get by as best they can, or move.
.
That's what I did - move that is - and where I live I ride a bike everyday for transport (without a helmet). It always amazes me when I am in Australia how few people just ride bicycles around. When I was stuck in Australia with the COVID lockdown I was surprised how many people were just riding bicycles around. But by the time I left it had gone back to normal. When I stay in my place on the Sydney north shore I am about the only local person riding a bike for transport - the only other bicycle riders I see are the occasional warrior commuters who brave Military Rd each work day and the peletons of sports cyclists who pass through along Military Rd on the weekends.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:32 am
by BobtheBuilder
And by contrast, here in the NT, despite the often very high temperatures, people just riding around (99% helmetless, mostly with hats though) is very common.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:29 am
by Comedian
tpcycle wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:10 pm
Comedian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:54 am
So the only thing left for them is to just get by as best they can, or move.
.
That's what I did - move that is - and where I live I ride a bike everyday for transport (without a helmet). It always amazes me when I am in Australia how few people just ride bicycles around. When I was stuck in Australia with the COVID lockdown I was surprised how many people were just riding bicycles around. But by the time I left it had gone back to normal. When I stay in my place on the Sydney north shore I am about the only local person riding a bike for transport - the only other bicycle riders I see are the occasional warrior commuters who brave Military Rd each work day and the peletons of sports cyclists who pass through along Military Rd on the weekends.
BTB beat me to it. The only place in Australia where you see a lot of people riding for transport is the NT. I was amazed when I was there. Yet.. the helmet advocates just cry "But it's different there!".
I've long said that the only chance I can see of the law being changed is if one state repeals it .. and then sees a sudden jump in utility cycling but without the anticipated quantity of brain smearage.
The data for all this is at best inconclusive, and academics have (must??) make careers that support the decisions of the people paying their bills.
So we need somewhere that's harder to ignore than the NT to show the rest of the country what would be achieved by a repeal. That's the only way I think it will ever change.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:47 pm
by BobtheBuilder
Comedian wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:29 am
"But it's different there!".
Yeah, it's way, way hotter and/or wetter than the climate that most Australians live in, and even though the population is small, the urban areas are still pretty spread out (although somewhat irrelevant, as much utility cycling is to the local shops/school/pub/friends, whether in small town or big city). If anything you'd think there'd be less cycling here.
Exactly how do they explain the NT "difference" as being relevant?
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:04 pm
by human909
Comedian wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:29 am
BTB beat me to it. The only place in Australia where you see a lot of people riding for transport is the NT. I was amazed when I was there.
Come hang out in inner city Melbourne, particularly the inner East and the inner North. Riding for transport is 100% normalised for the residents who live here. The proportion of cycle commuters are the highest of any part of Australia.
Of course that doesn't apply to all of Melbourne but it is spearheading the change.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:32 pm
by human909
Comedian wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:29 am
BTB beat me to it. The only place in Australia where you see a lot of people riding for transport is the NT. I was amazed when I was there.
Come hang out in inner city Melbourne, particularly the inner East and the inner North. Riding for transport is 100% normalised for the residents who live here. The proportion of cycle commuters are the highest of any part of Australia.
Of course that doesn't apply to all of Melbourne but it is spearheading the change.
Some fantastic data here:
https://chartingtransport.com/
https://public.tableau.com/profile/chri ... desharemap
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am
by Comedian
human909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:32 pm
Comedian wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:29 am
BTB beat me to it. The only place in Australia where you see a lot of people riding for transport is the NT. I was amazed when I was there.
Come hang out in inner city Melbourne, particularly the inner East and the inner North. Riding for transport is 100% normalised for the residents who live here. The proportion of cycle commuters are the highest of any part of Australia.
Of course that doesn't apply to all of Melbourne but it is spearheading the change.
Some fantastic data here:
https://chartingtransport.com/
https://public.tableau.com/profile/chri ... desharemap
That's awesome! Are they largely helmet free? Are the cops going them?
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:12 am
by human909
Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am
That's awesome! Are they largely helmet free? Are the cops going them?
Nup. Us Victorians mostly follow the rules.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:59 am
by Comedian
human909 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:12 am
Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am
That's awesome! Are they largely helmet free? Are the cops going them?
Nup. Us Victorians mostly follow the rules.
What happens to the ones that don't tow the line?
What is needed is an example of mass disobedience.
Again the only examples I've got is the NT and Byron, both of which are easily dismissed. It's got to be one of the big cities.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:31 pm
by RobertL
human909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:04 pm
Comedian wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:29 am
BTB beat me to it. The only place in Australia where you see a lot of people riding for transport is the NT. I was amazed when I was there.
Come hang out in inner city Melbourne, particularly the inner East and the inner North. Riding for transport is 100% normalised for the residents who live here. The proportion of cycle commuters are the highest of any part of Australia.
Of course that doesn't apply to all of Melbourne but it is spearheading the change.
I remember seeing some stats - pre-covid - that Melbourne had more people commuting by bicycle than by tram. Of course, Melbourne is famous for it's trams while the cyclists are somehow invisible.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:14 pm
by Thoglette
Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:59 am
What is needed is an example of mass disobedience.
Again the only examples I've got is the NT and Byron, both of which are easily dismissed. It's got to be one of the big cities.
What, like Amsterdam, New York or Copenhagen?
Oh, that’s right: we’re special. Physics, maths and biology work differently here, in ways that are somehow never adequately disclosed.
Even Brisbane or Perth would “explained away” by the True Believers of MHLs.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:32 pm
by Comedian
Thoglette wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:14 pm
Comedian wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:59 am
What is needed is an example of mass disobedience.
Again the only examples I've got is the NT and Byron, both of which are easily dismissed. It's got to be one of the big cities.
What, like Amsterdam, New York or Copenhagen?
Oh, that’s right: we’re special. Physics, maths and biology work differently here, in ways that are somehow never adequately disclosed.
Even Brisbane or Perth would “explained away” by the True Believers of MHLs.
Yeah.. anywhere overseas is definitely different to here. I do tend to agree that they will always try and find a way to explain away. But it would be very inconvenient if a major city repealed the law and world didn't stop spinning.. nor was there a river of blood.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:59 am
by rustguard
I am also a hardcore inline skater. I skate without a helmet all the time. but when ever I do skatepark or anything off the ground I always wear a helmet.
I would never wear a cycling helmet though. they are rubbish, The really hard foam has next to zero impact absorption, all they do is just split open and you have a head ache. cheap skate helmets are the same. My skate helmet has none of that hard esky foam the bike helmets are made of. It has sections of about 3/4 inch of firm spongy type foam. They can be removed for washing, which is essential because of perspiration. Being an enclosed skate helmet is too hot on a bike. My bike helmet lives in my pannier or strapped to my rear rack. I hate helmet hair. Its good to see this thread still going, I have many fond memories of it
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:24 pm
by human909
rustguard wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:59 am
The really hard foam has next to zero impact absorption, all they do is just split open and you have a head ache. cheap skate helmets are the same. My skate helmet has none of that hard esky foam the bike helmets are made of. It has sections of about 3/4 inch of firm spongy type foam.
Interesting... So have you performed more scientific tests on energy absorbent helmet polystyrene than helmet designers? So bicycle helmets, motorcycle helmets, ski helmets, rock climbing helmets have it all wrong and the skaters have it right? Interesting...
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:39 pm
by am50em
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:42 pm
by MichaelB
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:24 am
by Scintilla
Comedian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:54 am
DavidS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:31 pm
Time for this video again:
Stupid law.
DS
I actually know the people behind that video. I haven't spoken to them recently about it, but I'm pretty confident they have given up.
It's just not an issue that can be changed in Australia.
My take on it is that two groups of Australians make up about 99.5% of the country. They are either drivers or sports cyclists. Both of these groups support the law, or are at most ambivalent.
Which.. it is what it is. It's only really utility cyclists that understand why it's decimated utility cycling - and both of the above groups are completely convinced that even though it's not something that they don't have any experience of that the utility cyclists are just wrong. So the only thing left for them is to just get by as best they can, or move. The only satisfaction (that's probably not the right word) they will get is being able to laugh at governments and other groups failed attempts to try and get their populations to be healthier and more active by getting incidental exercise, and abate the climate crisis. Oh well.
Unfortunately I fear that you are too correct. I have almost given up on any chance of success on the law. However I am quite pleased to see the significant jump in ordinary folks just riding without helmets in Melbourne during this lockdown. It is clear the police have a lot more stuff on their plate to deal with.
I ride my bike. Sometimes I choose not to wear the helmet, other times I choose to do so. Choice is all that I want, and the choice is what I make. More people should just choose. I will probably continue on any helmet-free rides that are run, although some disparaging comments against our lockdown and COVId rules from members of the group concerned have pissed me off rather a bit.
Cheers, Sc
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:10 pm
by opik_bidin
No.MHL, yet no helmet is still used to arrest with force and jail someone
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12871268 ... ssion=true
NT Police were advised to issue a written apology to a 17-year-old cyclist who was taken to the ground and handcuffed for not wearing a helmet, a report from the Northern Territory Ombudsman has revealed.
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:04 pm
by Comedian
opik_bidin wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:10 pm
No.MHL, yet no helmet is still used to arrest with force and jail someone
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12871268 ... ssion=true
NT Police were advised to issue a written apology to a 17-year-old cyclist who was taken to the ground and handcuffed for not wearing a helmet, a report from the Northern Territory Ombudsman has revealed.
Meanwhile... Motorist hits and kills cyclist, apologises, so no jail.
The judge accepted Mirzikinian, a former poker champion, was blinded by the sun at the time but it begged the question of why a driver would move into a kerbside lane unsighted.
"The fact his vision was so compromised means he should have stayed in the lane," Judge O'Brien said.
"To do otherwise was inherently dangerous"
Prosecutors said a jail term was needed but it could be served as an ICO if Mirzikinian's moral culpability was judged as low.
The judge found so, saying while worse than a momentary lapse of attention, the offending didn't involve speeding and the dangerous driving occurred only over a short distance.
The 52-year-old's early guilty plea, genuine remorse and offers to pay for the victim's funeral and otherwise help the Trameaux family were also recognised.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... tal-crash/
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:15 pm
by BobtheBuilder
This thread has been inactive recently, but thought I'd share this thing from Dorothy Robinson which neatly sums up the arguments against MHL.
https://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/c2034.pdf
Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:40 pm
by MichaelB
Note that the paper is not peer reviewed and majority of data is well over 20 years old .....
