Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[Ross]

Today's clickbait story is written by Nigel Gladstone is an "investigative journalist" at The Sydney Morning Herald (my inverted commas ).

Cycling without a helmet in these suburbs the 'quickest route to police search'

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/cyc ... 54svz.html

NSW Police have been accused of using bike fines as a "hidden justice system" to enable searches of poor and vulnerable people, with new data obtained under freedom of information laws showing penalties are soaring in some suburbs while others have none.

Often for a young person, a bike is their only mode of transport, and if they get stopped for riding on the footpath, asked why they haven't got a helmet, that escalates into a search and they may get annoyed and swear.

"It leads to the trifecta," Ms Lee said. "Fine for not wearing a helmet, fine for offensive language, and then fine for resisting arrest."

[Comedian]

Did anyone even see this?

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/05/when-ma ... -go-wrong/

[opik_bidin]

Today's clickbait story is written by Nigel Gladstone is an "investigative journalist" at The Sydney Morning Herald (my inverted commas ).

Cycling without a helmet in these suburbs the 'quickest route to police search'

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/cyc ... 54svz.html

NSW Police have been accused of using bike fines as a "hidden justice system" to enable searches of poor and vulnerable people, with new data obtained under freedom of information laws showing penalties are soaring in some suburbs while others have none.

Often for a young person, a bike is their only mode of transport, and if they get stopped for riding on the footpath, asked why they haven't got a helmet, that escalates into a search and they may get annoyed and swear.

"It leads to the trifecta," Ms Lee said. "Fine for not wearing a helmet, fine for offensive language, and then fine for resisting arrest."

There is also fine comparisons with driver fines, with cyclists withut hemets being bigger although drivers can damage and kill

[BobtheBuilder]

NSW Police have been accused of using bike fines as a "hidden justice system" to enable searches of poor and vulnerable people, with new data obtained under freedom of information laws showing penalties are soaring in some suburbs while others have none.

The same has been true of Covid-19 fines. Wealthy eastern Sydney suburbs that some some of the biggest outbreaks largely spared, remote western towns with high Aboriginal populations and almost no coronavirus in the district handed out masses of fines.

What is it with NSW police?

[baabaa]

The same has been true of Covid-19 fines. Wealthy eastern Sydney suburbs that some some of the biggest outbreaks largely spared, remote western towns with high Aboriginal populations and almost no coronavirus in the district handed out masses of fines.
What is it with NSW police?

Have a source for this Bob? If so will wander down to the local coppers for comment as the number of cases in rural NSW is easy to find.

[BobtheBuilder]

Have a source for this Bob? If so will wander down to the local coppers for comment as the number of cases in rural NSW is easy to find.

Very easy to find lots of articles on this. Here are a few.

Let us all know how you go with the local coppers.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-16/ ... s/12146978

For example, Coonamble (where around a third of the population is Indigenous), saw 10 per cent of NSW's infringement notices, despite having just 0.04 per cent of the state's population and no confirmed COVID-19 cases.

Almost a third of fines have been issued in Western Sydney, which has the largest Indigenous and migrant populations in Australia.

Earlier this month, only two of the 151 fines for flouting lockdown rules issued in NSW were in Waverley, in the Eastern suburbs, despite having the state's highest number of confirmed cases.

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/new ... 1320009710

Human rights advocates, public health experts and lawyers are calling for greater scrutiny of how police are enforcing Covid-19 public health orders, as new analysis by The Saturday Paper reveals massive discrepancies across jurisdictions and raises concerns about racial bias.

[baabaa]

....handed out masses of fines.
Your words. Please come up with the numbers of real fines that have gone through in remote western towns.

FWIW I dont know BIll Dickson from Dubbo Legal aid but agree if these fines did occur in Walgett, Bourke and Coonamble that they would be highly likely be Indigenous people.

[BobtheBuilder]

....handed out masses of fines.
Your words. Please come up with the numbers of real fines that have gone through in remote western towns.

FWIW I dont know BIll Dickson from Dubbo Legal aid but agree if these fines did occur in Walgett, Bourke and Coonamble that they would be highly likely be Indigenous people.

The data's easily accessible - I'm not going to split hairs with you on this. Even in this quote it points out that 10% of fines were in Coonamble alone, with 0.04% of NSW' population, I don't know how that wouldn't count as 'masses of fines' ... But yeah, you can find what you want with google very easily, this is a going-nowhere conversation, though I'll be interested in hearing how your conversation with the local coppers goes.

[baabaa]

Do you really think these communities and others in western NSW like to be seen as some form of lawless Deadwood?
These towns have been poo scared of this virus for good reason and have been very forward in protecting their own people. All three of these towns have struggled because of the comments like you have made as it is simply not true.
Also the police in these towns deal with stuff as part of the communities.
Words are important.

[BobtheBuilder]

Do you really think these communities and others in western NSW like to be seen as some form of lawless Deadwood?
These towns have been poo scared of this virus for good reason and have been very forward in protecting their own people. All three of these towns have struggled because of the comments like you have made as it is simply not true.
Also the police in these towns deal with stuff as part of the communities.
Words are important.

This is ridiculous. The data clearly shows a correlation between disempowered populations and high rates of Covid-19 fines and not a correlation between fines and incidence of Coronavirus. By your logic Bondi is a form of lawless Deadwood ...

The original article that sparked this conversation demonstrated exactly the same thing - police are over-policing disempowered populations.

[rustguard]

This is ridiculous. The data clearly shows a correlation between disempowered populations and high rates of Covid-19 fines and not a correlation between fines and incidence of Coronavirus. By your logic Bondi is a form of lawless Deadwood ...

The original article that sparked this conversation demonstrated exactly the same thing - police are over-policing disempowered populations.

Exactly! well said,

[fat and old]

Very easy to find lots of articles on this. Here are a few.



https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-16/ ... s/12146978

Not buying into the question of where police issue fines, just noting the author...

Kristen Zornada is a human rights lawyer. She previously worked for the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights scrutinising legislation including police powers for human rights concerns. She is currently in lockdown in Italy.

Kinda ironic, being in Italy at the time of writing. Not to mention totally removed from the reality on the ground in Australia

[BobtheBuilder]

Not buying into the question of where police issue fines, just noting the author...

This is formally called an ad hominen attack, or in English, playing the (wo)man, not the ball. It's often resorted to in situations when the attacker lacks evidence, whether logical or empirical, for their point of view and seeks to divert the discussion to an assessment of the character or characteristics of the person putting a view. Donald Trump is a notable proponent.

[baabaa]

Exactly! well said,

Seriously do look at the numbers.
No one wants covid this in regional and more so Western NSW and people have supported the fines to keep it out.

Guessing if Osman sought comment from Legal Aid it would have pointed out most fines would have been dob-ins by locals and people who care for other people to not be silly in the community. Hard to call down the police when they give warnings before being fined.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/coonamblesh ... cil/posts/
Coonamble Shire Council
10 April ·
Everyone needs to do their part to stop the spread of COVID-19.
If you believe a person or business isn't following the Public Health Act or Public Health Order, can contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000 or https://nsw.crimestoppers.com.au

I think Osman Faruqi (and even more so his wife in NSW Parli) does a lot of good work but this "initial analysis" was sloppy. Four fines and yet no mention of the two cases in Coonamble?

COVID-19 cases by local government area in Western NSW
https://www.westernadvocate.com.au/stor ... -bathurst/

Country cops, like country doctors and teachers ..... think what you like, but cops work in these communities not against them.

[BobtheBuilder]

Seriously do look at the numbers.

Country cops, like country doctors and teachers ..... think what you like, but cops work in these communities not against them.

Tell that to most Aboriginal people or young men of "middle Eastern appearance" and they'll have a good laugh with you.
The data shows rich suburbs get fined less. They show, in the case of Covid-19, that in many cases they have more of the virus in the community. I would take a punt that they also don't have different rates of helmet-wearing (unless you're also saying that people in rich suburbs are generally just more law-abiding?).
Data in a whole range of areas show people from privileged backgrounds are treated differentially to average people and marginalised people.

You can talk about how great country cops are till the cows come home, but that's your opinion (clearly very fixed) and one not based on outcomes or the views of many people in country areas. Though, to be clear, I'm not having a go at cops personally, this is a systemic issue.

[baabaa]

Best not judge. I grew up in and around these people and was lucky enough at a time when I could have slipped between the cracks, to be taken in and under the wing by an old Wiradjuri uncle who gave me time and taught me more about life the universe and everything in a way that changed me for ever.
I would never say I fully understand, but I think they know that I know at least a little.
FWIW I speak pretty rough Urdu and if I was to think around a religion, which I dont really do , I would be closest to Sufi. Two of the local copper are local locals and then a bloody smart young women from a ME background. I see and know what they do. I get what you are saying about both these groups but this is irrelevant.
Everyone needs to be careful with words.
I saw what you said as dog whistling. Communities in NSW are proud of what they have done this year. This is from the place I grew up.
https://www.narrominenewsonline.com.au/ ... /?cs=17267
But I agree the treatment across Aust courts is often horrible. We need to keep people out of courts and jail and cops can do this. We need to get good people to become cops and then support and keep the good ones.
Back to MHL and the same thing. I will always stop and talk to a cop when on a bike with and without a helmet. They can make a big impact on change.

[fat and old]

Not buying into the question of where police issue fines, just noting the author...

This is formally called an ad hominen attack, or in English, playing the (wo)man, not the ball. It's often resorted to in situations when the attacker lacks evidence, whether logical or empirical, for their point of view and seeks to divert the discussion to an assessment of the character or characteristics of the person putting a view. Donald Trump is a notable proponent.

That would be cool IF I had issued a POV. I didn't.

[BobtheBuilder]

No, you're just randomly bringing up the author of an article for no reason at all ...

[rustguard]

Exactly! well said,

Seriously do look at the numbers.
No one wants covid this in regional and more so Western NSW and people have supported the fines to keep it out.

I did read the numbers and they say that where the highest cases of covid were/are is the exact opposite of where they handed out the larger number of fines. Its pretty straight forward?

Maybe they should have concentrated on the incoming ships and stuff instead of running around western NSW handing out fines? I notice the 2 most fascist states in Australia that used fines as a money grab also have the largest amount of spread of disease?

The NSW and Victorian police are corrupt and have been since they stepped off the first fleet and started their slave/rum trade

[BobtheBuilder]

It's certainly interesting that two schools in Sydney's affluent eastern suburbs were just closed because of coronavirus cases. Seems Bondi and environs continue to cause coronavirus spread, but strangely the police can't find anyone breaking the rules ...

[warthog1]

So this thread is now a kick the police thread?
Not a job I could do.
I frequently rely on them in my health care job.
I have regularly been impressed with the restraint shown in very trying circumstances.

How about we stick to the topic in the title?

[fat and old]

No, you're just randomly bringing up the author of an article for no reason at all ...

Oh no, that's not true. I canned her, absolutely. I just didn't give a POV on the subject.

[BobtheBuilder]

No, you're just randomly bringing up the author of an article for no reason at all ...

Oh no, that's not true. I canned her, absolutely. I just didn't give a POV on the subject.

Yawn. You're having a go at her views via a rhetorically bankrupt route. But, who cares, the facts speak for themselves.

So this thread is now a kick the police thread?

Or a blindly defend the police thread, no matter what the facts? I know lots of impressive police as well, and have come upon lots of rotten ones. The point isn't the individuals, the point is that the policing system as a whole disproportionately targets the more vulnerable, as the data discussed above demonstrates.

How about we stick to the topic in the title?

Agreed, sounds like a good idea ... and the original article that pointed this out was that MHLs were being used to target vulnerable populations (whether deliberately by evil policeman or unconsciously by wonderful, faultless policemen is irrelevant), populations that would be less likely to be able to afford a car, that would be less likely to have access to decent public transport and therefore use bikes for utility purposes; not to mention generally have poorer health indicators, so would benefit for higher rates of cycling.

I introduced the theme of the Covid-19 fines being used in the same way as an aside to demonstrate a wider theme, but more than happy to drop this and return to MHLs.

[fat and old]

No, you're just randomly bringing up the author of an article for no reason at all ...

Oh no, that's not true. I canned her, absolutely. I just didn't give a POV on the subject.

Yawn. You're having a go at her views via a rhetorically bankrupt route. But, who cares, the facts speak for themselves.

I see your yawn and raise it with sleep. Goodnight

[human909]

Out today for a ride. I'm not as fit as I should be.

Saw quite a few helmetless riders. Which is quite an uncommon occurrence in Melbourne. Mostly minors or young adult males riding on footpaths. I suppose it is a positive sign... A slight nudge away from the helmets regime. But really these are different times. Until people can feel the comfort to ride to the shops unharassed then we still have an issue.