War on cars

User avatar
WyvernRH
Posts: 3287
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: War on cars

Postby WyvernRH » Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:52 am

opik_bidin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm
<snip>
Image
And there you have it. The picture neatly illustrates why 'Normal"<sic> people, given the option, currently choose to drive to work.
Given the choice of;
- Inconvenient, cramped, maybe dangerous and possibly wet
Against:
- Inconvenient, comfortable, safe (seeming), warm, dry, coffee/snack availability and the ability to do your make-up or whatever.

I know which the majority of people I used to work with would choose if they could afford it - and mostly they could and did.

Even in a smaller city like Newcastle (NSW) most folk live too far from work to make cycling an option except for enthusiasts. You need good public transportation, maybe with a cycle/ride/cycle capacity. Last time I was in London Brompton folders appeared to have taken over Kings Cross station at rush hour :P

Richard

fat and old
Posts: 6319
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: War on cars

Postby fat and old » Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:47 am

Retrobyte wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 2:32 pm
mikesbytes wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 2:29 pm
There would be tax advantages in buying vehicles for work while still serving a personal purpose
Instant tax deduction if you have an ABN
Not any more, 20k threshold. Depreciation only.

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 22852
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: War on cars

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:07 am

WyvernRH wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:52 am
opik_bidin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm
<snip>
Image
And there you have it. The picture neatly illustrates why 'Normal"<sic> people, given the option, currently choose to drive to work.
Given the choice of;
- Inconvenient, cramped, maybe dangerous and possibly wet
Against:
- Inconvenient, comfortable, safe (seeming), warm, dry, coffee/snack availability and the ability to do your make-up or whatever.

I know which the majority of people I used to work with would choose if they could afford it - and mostly they could and did.

Even in a smaller city like Newcastle (NSW) most folk live too far from work to make cycling an option except for enthusiasts. You need good public transportation, maybe with a cycle/ride/cycle capacity. Last time I was in London Brompton folders appeared to have taken over Kings Cross station at rush hour :P

Richard
We don’t build networks of cycle ways that allow people to get where they want to go.

And when it is proposed, a whole group of cycling embassy advocates comes along and argues against it because they only want riding short distances to the local whatever. And they are happy to see the world burn if they can’t get support for their approach.

So cycling never goes anywhere.

I do ride to work when it is warmer but most of them time I don’t need to go there. I’m efficient at what I do from home and the numbers back that up. Not having to waste hours on commutes means I can more easily do more with less.

User avatar
baabaa
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:47 am

Re: War on cars

Postby baabaa » Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:37 am

g-boaf wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:07 am

We don’t build networks of cycle ways that allow people to get where they want to go.
Maybe, but the message is pretty clear that is what people around the world want.

https://momentummag.com/rei-study-shows ... ike-lanes/

A sunday morning bike ride (in summer or spring) along the cycleways of Seoul, Shanghai, SàiGòn and Santiago are full of smiling people of all ages just riding bikes, even if they may not be the most direct route to a location they personally want to end up at.
When the "network" fall short, you also need to be able to take bikes on other no hassle transport options like buses, trains and ferries to fill in the holes.
Most bikes are not dangerous items to other passengers if they can be firmly stored/ racked.
You can buy a "with a bike" ticket for the Santiago cable car and ride around Metropolitan Park and then down that bloody steep hill.....

It can be done

fat and old
Posts: 6319
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: War on cars

Postby fat and old » Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:42 am

Goddamn!

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australi ... ngNewsSerp

Apprentices can't even drive at their age :lol: More sensationalism from the media...how dare those lousy blue collar blokes get a good wage!

I did forget to mention the Union's part in the rise of the fancy dual cabs. If it wasn't for the work done by the likes of Norm Gallaghar et al in the 70's and 80's we wouldn't have a problem now. Those labourers and other dirty trade types would still be working for a pittance, driving about in 40 y.o beaters. Oh, for the times when we could lock a man up for disagreeing with a ruling on arbitration. Those were the glory days. Keeping the working man where he belonged, in his old FC Holden.

fat and old
Posts: 6319
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: War on cars

Postby fat and old » Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:50 am

DavidS wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:32 pm


As I said, I have no problem with SUVs and 4WDs which are used for the purpose they are designed (nice of you to edit my post by the way), but I don't like the fact that so many people now buy SUVs instead of sedans or wagons like we used to. I don't think there is suddenly a greater need for vehicles which can go off road, after all, a conventional sedan will take you down 99.9% of roads with ease.
What's the problem? I edited to show the part I was referring to. Doesn't that meet your standard of forum interaction? Given your general dislike of anything your arbitrarily decide as unnecessary I'm not really surprised. Shall I refer to your superior standards when looking for a new pair of socks?

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 22852
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: War on cars

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:23 am

Debate the topic, not the person.

fat and old
Posts: 6319
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: War on cars

Postby fat and old » Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:29 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:23 am
Debate the topic, not the person.
I CAN’T HEAR YOU, SPEAK LOUDER PLEASE

Seriously Boaf, wt? Playing the man has been an integral part of this whole subject. Every second reference to a 4wding, suving or anything other than a Golf, Merc or other Euro or sports car contains some derogatory description of the owner/driver. With a healthy dose of superiority thrown in. Or, a snide “other people would disagree so I’ll leave it there” comment tossed in. Where’s the line in the sand? Point it out, quantify it and that’s the one I personally won’t cross.

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 22852
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: War on cars

Postby g-boaf » Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:52 pm

I’m sure mods have previously said the same thing and you wouldn’t answer back at them.

So yes, debate the topic.

What’s the point to being here anymore. :|

warthog1
Posts: 15310
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:40 pm
Location: Bendigo

Re: War on cars

Postby warthog1 » Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:44 pm

Moderating is for moderators. Lucky that we have them.
I enjoy your posts F&O and would like to read more of them.
4wd = automatic evil annoys me also. Yes it appears some buy them for the wrong reason. Not all of us do, but I am not in a postion to make an assessment of others' reasons for owning them.
Dogs are the best people :wink:

User avatar
bychosis
Posts: 7377
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: War on cars

Postby bychosis » Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:34 am

WyvernRH wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:52 am
Even in a smaller city like Newcastle (NSW) most folk live too far from work to make cycling an option except for enthusiasts. You need good public transportation, maybe with a cycle/ride/cycle capacity.
Newcastle public transport is pretty ordinary so everyone 'needs' a car. And because everyone has a car, public transport isn't serviced effectively.

Recently had a difficult logistical afternoon with sports training, work meetings and other commitments. Our usual 3 driver household was needed to go in 4 directions. Looked at a potential bus solution. Nope. A 20min drive from what I consider 'hub to hub' required multiple buses plus walking to final destination. The app said about 1h45 I think.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

Mr Purple
Posts: 3443
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:14 pm

Re: War on cars

Postby Mr Purple » Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:29 am

bychosis wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:34 am
Newcastle public transport is pretty ordinary so everyone 'needs' a car. And because everyone has a car, public transport isn't serviced effectively.

Recently had a difficult logistical afternoon with sports training, work meetings and other commitments. Our usual 3 driver household was needed to go in 4 directions. Looked at a potential bus solution. Nope. A 20min drive from what I consider 'hub to hub' required multiple buses plus walking to final destination. The app said about 1h45 I think.
This is unfortunately a self fulfilling prophecy. My work commute takes me about 30 minutes by car, and I've done it by bike in 35 minutes but due to the driving standards and unprotected bike lane if you do that every day fate will catch up with you eventually.

Out of curiosity I plugged in the same journey on the public transport planning app. A minimum of two hours. That's just not even trying.

it's annoying because if there was a viable option I'd actually consider it. Heck, if there was actual off road bike infrastructure I'd routinely ride four days a week.

brumby33
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:52 pm
Location: Albury NSW on the mighty Murray River

Re: War on cars

Postby brumby33 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am

bychosis wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 7:34 am
WyvernRH wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:52 am
Even in a smaller city like Newcastle (NSW) most folk live too far from work to make cycling an option except for enthusiasts. You need good public transportation, maybe with a cycle/ride/cycle capacity.
Newcastle public transport is pretty ordinary so everyone 'needs' a car. And because everyone has a car, public transport isn't serviced effectively.

Recently had a difficult logistical afternoon with sports training, work meetings and other commitments. Our usual 3 driver household was needed to go in 4 directions. Looked at a potential bus solution. Nope. A 20min drive from what I consider 'hub to hub' required multiple buses plus walking to final destination. The app said about 1h45 I think.
I know what you're saying, I drove for the STA Government buses in Newcastle from 2011 till 2017 and when they Privatised (the very first of the Gov buses to be Privatised before starting in Sydney) and I thought the services in Newcastle quite reasonable with good patronage and then the new Operators KD upended the entire network and numbering of routes, chopped and change routes and it left so many people confused an bewildered, especially those who were going to many of the sheltered workshops in and around the Lambton and Broadmeadow areas, they were getting lost and even stranded at bus stops because their routes had changed....they didn't give much notice either, some old people in Warners Bay were left stranded at bus stops.

Even I went up there to celebrate an old School Mate's 60'th Birthday, none of the buses left from where they used to, the new number had nothing to do with the old 363 to Glendale from Newcastle West but i did manage to find it eventually.....got it down to Cardiff Station and got a taxi to Edgeworth. from there......it was a monumental pain especially thinking I've done these routes thousands of time and nothing made sense. If I had my bike with me, I'd have ridden from Broadmeadow through to Jesmond, Wallsend, the old tram route to Glendale and along to Edgeworth for the time it took me to sort out the bus routes.....i was lucky that the bus driver whom I knew from working there was to explain it to me how it works and what buses to catch where in future........it was as stupid move in my opinion.
"ya gotta hold ya mouth right"

VWR Patagonia 2017
2003 Diamondback Sorrento Sport MTB

User avatar
bychosis
Posts: 7377
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Lake Macquarie

Re: War on cars

Postby bychosis » Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:58 pm

I'll admit I haven't ever used a bus in Newcastle because I've always had a car since I moved here, but it seems that the route planning only caters for heading to the main hubs and not efficiently.

Id hate to be setting up public transport in this age. Too many people that have set up their life around car usage. Unlike the good old days when you chose to live/work based around public transport.

Out of interest I checked to see what my commute would be. Two different locations, but similar distance from home. It's about 8km or under 30min riding, or 15min drive. Public transport was over an hour and at least 2 buses for all options. The kicker was, if I want to arrive at my regualr start time of 630 am, I need to leave the night before for several options. 7am was doable, but 1.5 hours travel time. I should note that home and one workplace are within a couple of blocks of main roads. The other workplace is within a block of a minor, but still busy through road or about 3-4 blocks of a main road.

As for cycleways, I can use the Glendale tramway track to commute home. It adds some kms, but its far better than battling traffic.
Last edited by bychosis on Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

CmdrBiggles
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:28 pm
Location: Wadawurrung Country / VIC

Re: War on cars

Postby CmdrBiggles » Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:05 pm

I'm commuting Geelong —> Melbourne (Fitzroy/Fairfield, alternating) each day by bus, train and tram. Not fussed at all. The chaos and tempest on the roads confronting me as a cyclist, even with decades of city riding experience, is not for me now in the colder months, where people are impatient, the lighting poor and the danger greatly amplified as the sun goes down at 5.10pm. I look at bike paths as the train and tram trundle onward and even they are deserted. I'll pick up cycle commuting again in late August.
GIANT '24 TCR Adv. Pro Disc 0-AR/SRAM Force eTAP
'18 GT Zaskar Carbon Comp 9r
2021 Dragon Raptor e-scooter ['Yellow Peril']

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: War on cars

Postby antigee » Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:02 pm

"....The NSW government could block a council-led plan to further cut speed limits in Sydney's centre, a move the premier says could reduce metropolitan traffic to walking speed...."

like the too slow and also too fast Schrodinger's cyclist there are also pedestrians that are capable of high speed:

....Premier Chris Minns said increasing the number of 30km/h roads was over the top, adding: "You could walk quicker than that......"

https://au.news.yahoo.com/intervention- ... UNfvUX5TMt

[advert heavy but not pay walled]

note for "Journalists" : ...."Traffic lanes have also been removed on several streets to allow for the construction of bike lanes..." Think that should read "Traffic lanes have been reduced... unless Sydney is really going for Ped' / Cyclist only streets

Meanwhile here in Vic' am waiting hopefully (but not optimistically) for the Governments response to the Committee report tabled in May:
Legislative Assembly Economy and Infrastructure Committee
Inquiry into the impact of road safety behaviours on vulnerable road users

https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/get-i ... rs/reports

Recommendation "3.2.1 It should be easier for councils to designate lower speed limits"

Submission from one Council local to me but sadly not my Council: ...."Speed zone changes {on local roads} must be approved by the Department of Transport and Planning (DTP) which can take many months. The process of getting DTP and stakeholder approval can make it difficult to make timely speed limit changes on our road network, changes that we know will reduce the number and severity of collision"

Near me it took 10 years to implement a 40km/hr speed limit on a road with shops on both sides, a community centre, medical centres, bus stops and a train station .

User avatar
antigee
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:58 am
Location: just off the Yarra Trail but not lurking in the bushes

Re: War on cars

Postby antigee » Mon Aug 26, 2024 2:09 pm

pleasant surprise article in TheAge (possibly paywalled) traders paying to remove on street parking!

I guess its ok when you get a larger trading area so maybe bike lane plans that remove parking should include provision for outside dining:

"Melbourne’s beloved parklets too big to fail as restaurants pay up for on-street dining"

"The on-street dining trend that grew out of pandemic restrictions is here to stay as businesses and councils look to cash in at the expense of street parking.......

......Merri-bek Mayor Adam Pulford said the parklets were always intended to be temporary and the decision to remove them “followed many months of consultation”. He said businesses applying for permanent parklets would be supported.

........Despite the additional costs, many businesses across Melbourne are paying up......

Phillip Mansour, executive officer of Carlton local traders’ association Carlton Inc, estimates 95 per cent of businesses that had parklets installed during the lockdowns have paid to keep the fixtures since fees were brought in by the City of Melbourne about two years ago.

“It’s been a cost incurred to businesses that they believe has returned on investment,” Mansour said....
.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 5k3kw.html

Cyclophiliac
Posts: 1066
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:48 am

Re: War on cars

Postby Cyclophiliac » Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:07 pm


User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 22852
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: War on cars

Postby g-boaf » Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:15 pm

antigee wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 4:02 pm
"....The NSW government could block a council-led plan to further cut speed limits in Sydney's centre, a move the premier says could reduce metropolitan traffic to walking speed...."

like the too slow and also too fast Schrodinger's cyclist there are also pedestrians that are capable of high speed:

....Premier Chris Minns said increasing the number of 30km/h roads was over the top, adding: "You could walk quicker than that......"
Okay Minns, challenge is on - I'll ride a bicycle at 30km/h and you have to walk faster than 30km/h. I bet (and it's a pretty safe bet) you can't do it.

World class race-walkers do around 12-15km/h. Minns might be many things but he is not one of them.

jasonc
Posts: 12640
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: War on cars

Postby jasonc » Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:27 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:07 pm
Our society is sick:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ng-project
it's 1.5km walk to the train station. crazy.

User avatar
g-boaf
Posts: 22852
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: War on cars

Postby g-boaf » Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:45 pm

jasonc wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:27 pm
Cyclophiliac wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:07 pm
Our society is sick:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ng-project
it's 1.5km walk to the train station. crazy.
Surely it's possible to do both on the same location?

They'd have to allocate parking to any affordable housing surely.

I can see it's a small location so not much scope to do multi-level parking.

Anrai
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2024 10:14 pm
Location: Hobart

Re: War on cars

Postby Anrai » Fri Aug 30, 2024 4:34 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:15 pm
Okay Minns, challenge is on - I'll ride a bicycle at 30km/h and you have to walk faster than 30km/h. I bet (and it's a pretty safe bet) you can't do it.

World class race-walkers do around 12-15km/h. Minns might be many things but he is not one of them.
I estimate most of the layman runners I see at a sustained 11-12km/h or so. Kudos to the legend I found last night holding 15+ uphill.
What I can definitely walk faster than is overcongested peak hour traffic.

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 22354
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: War on cars

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 30, 2024 4:39 pm

The council needs to charge the Parker’s what that space is worth
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

Shred11
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 12:32 pm
Location: Launceston

Re: War on cars

Postby Shred11 » Fri Aug 30, 2024 7:50 pm

These would be the same businesses that protest loudly whenever someone wants to take parking spaces for a bike lane.

CmdrBiggles
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:28 pm
Location: Wadawurrung Country / VIC

Re: War on cars

Postby CmdrBiggles » Fri Aug 30, 2024 8:01 pm

WyvernRH wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:52 am

Image
And there you have it. The picture neatly illustrates why 'Normal"<sic> people, given the option, currently choose to drive to work.
Given the choice of;
- Inconvenient, cramped, maybe dangerous and possibly wet
Against:
- Inconvenient, comfortable, safe (seeming), warm, dry, coffee/snack availability and the ability to do your make-up or whatever.

I know which the majority of people I used to work with would choose if they could afford it - and mostly they could and did.

Even in a smaller city like Newcastle (NSW) most folk live too far from work to make cycling an option except for enthusiasts. You need good public transportation, maybe with a cycle/ride/cycle capacity. Last time I was in London Brompton folders appeared to have taken over Kings Cross station at rush hour :P

Richard
[/quote]


Such charming comparisons. :lol:
That middle picture of the sardine-like packed train is Exhibit A of my experience: today, the 3.30pm Geelong-bound train from Southern Cross, aka "The Mumbai Miracle" of squeezing in 10,000 Indians and their food delivery bikes (!) and every imaginable worker heaving home. If the train is evidently full, they dare to add 50 more people each stop!! The cramping is horrific. I had my bike with me today, and watched as the train progressively filled with people squeezed hard against it; at three stops, the train was held up because the doors would not shut (somebody was being squashed!)

At Tarneit, a couple of hundred spilled out, dutifully homeward-bound.
Next stop Windham Vale, the train emptied completely — party time!! :lol:

There is a problem here, acknowledged by transport and urban planners, albeit after the proverbial horse has walked through the optn age and vanished. Tarneit and Wyndham Vale are case studies in how not to build distant satellite suburbs to soak up a booming migrant worker population. Bicycles are rarely seen getting on or off Tarneit or Wyndham Vale stations (e-scooters though are more common) because they have no cycling infrastructure at all, other than on-road shared lanes beyond Tarneit that are quite dangerous traversing industry-heavy and traffic- and smog-choked Ravenhall and Laverton heading to the city. People in these two sprawling satellite suburbs are stuck with using their cars to drive to the station (typically under 10km, closer to the station, it is more like 2km to 3km), park there, board the train to city and return in the evening. Buses are available, but are seldom used. While parking at the station adds short-period congestion in peak hour, is spares other arterial roads from more grief. The people, though, add very significantly to congestion on trains — after 30 years, still 6 carriages and no more — 9 would be better, but the late-19th century rail infrastructure will not support it.
GIANT '24 TCR Adv. Pro Disc 0-AR/SRAM Force eTAP
'18 GT Zaskar Carbon Comp 9r
2021 Dragon Raptor e-scooter ['Yellow Peril']

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users