Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

Peter A wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:34 pm

Isn't a mountain being made out of a molehill here,

No.

Cyclist don't kill people (compared to cars). Yet we've police officers wasting time when they should be booking car drivers.

On the other hand, MHLs kill people (yes, Virginia, check the British Journal of Medicine Goldacre, B; Spiegelhalter, D 2013)

Quite a hike there for revenue

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/sto ... yCO_76GBQU

ent increased the fine for cyclists not wearing a helmet the number of riders fined and the revenue gained have skyrocketed.

The revenue from cyclists fined for not wearing a helmet has jumped more than 900 per cent since the government increased the penalty three years ago.

In 2016, the state government increased the fine for cyclists not wearing a helmet which now sits at $344.

By comparison a motorist driving 20km/h over the speed limit will be fined $280.

Data from the Office of State Revenue shows that, in the last financial year before the increase - 2014-15 - fines for not wearing a helmet totalled just $197,000

In 2019-19, cyclists were forced to cough up more than $2 million in fines - that's a jump of 940 per cent in just three years.

On top of this, the number of cyclists fined more than doubled over the same period from 2863 to 6102 - suggesting cyclists were being targeted since the fine hike.

Thoglette wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:52 pm

Peter A wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:34 pm

Isn't a mountain being made out of a molehill here,

No.

Cyclist don't kill people (compared to cars). Yet we've police officers wasting time when they should be booking car drivers.

On the other hand, MHLs kill people (yes, Virginia, check the British Journal of Medicine Goldacre, B; Spiegelhalter, D 2013)

The figures don't support your proposition that "police officers wasting time", as per the figures I posted, you are now just venting personal opinion.

I've finished here, no point continuing this stage.

Peter A wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:34 pm

Isn't a mountain being made out of a molehill here, 7.5Million+ in NSW and 6K+ MHL Pen Notices issued per annum.

About one person in 1,230 is booked for MHL.

In a large provincial town of about 50,000 people the number of tickets issued would be about 40.

Less than one ticket / week for the entire cop shop of probably 40++ personnel.

So the average cop might issue one MHL ticket per year, lazy so.n.so's.....LOL

(My maths, YMMV.)

I tend to agree and while I do dislike the whole MHL and even worse the endless chit chat go no where discussions, the true data which we will never see is that of how many warnings the Police give vs fines. The police and the NSW want people to see the big $$ and fines as this is the cheap and easy way for them to advertise results.
Ok in NSW you just do not ride without a helmet on the broadcasted days, but at other times and really away from the Sydney CBD the Police just dont bother you. In and across regional NSW my call is the rise in fines has in fact seen less fines being issues as the local cops know that the fine out weighs the "crime". Most rural cops are part of the community and if they do pull over say a mob of kids riding without helmets, they will just tell them to get off the road or go home and collect your helmets (or something of the kind). They just don't want the angst.
In a direct yardstick across the border comparison (have been overseas when the fines really shot up) I kinda see the number of people riding without helmets has gone down in NSW but remained the same in the ACT.

opik_bidin wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:13 pm

Quite a hike there for revenue

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/sto ... yCO_76GBQU



The revenue from cyclists fined for not wearing a helmet has jumped more than 900 per cent since the government increased the penalty three years ago.



Data from the Office of State Revenue shows that, in the last financial year before the increase - 2014-15 - fines for not wearing a helmet totalled just $197,000

In 2019-19, cyclists were forced to cough up more than $2 million in fines - that's a jump of 940 per cent in just three years.

Err....2014 - 2019 is actually 5 years, not 3.

F&O fact checker says: Unreliable figures, possibly fake news

I agree that the fines are a molehill. Moste enforcement measures are a molehill compared to the mountain. The mountain being the deterrance effect of a molehill of fines. It is kinda the point of the system and it is being successful. It is largely succeeding in stopping unhelmetted riding.

Though this bring us back to the big problem of MHLs. Does deterring unhelmeted riding increasing the use of helmets and/or decreasing the amount of riding. The evidence is extensive that it unsurprisingly does both. The latter of course has significant negative effects in many areas not to mention the safety of remaining cyclists.

Peter A wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:57 am

The figures don't support your proposition that "police officers wasting time", as per the figures I posted, you are now just venting personal opinion.

Which bit of the BITRE data (etc etc etc) don't you understand? On the presupposition that we have limited police resources, I'm struggling to find a better example of wasting police officer time than booking pedestrians and cyclists.

Your claim that your figures show anything demonstrates only that you've fallen for the equal responsiblity trap and/or have a profound misunderstanding of the road regulations and the enforcement statistics that should "naturally" arise from them. Which is your line of argument, after all.

Peter A wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:34 pm

<snip>About one person in 1,230 is booked for MHL.<snip>

Those rubbery figures remind me of this http://drawingrings.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... -than.html and are just as nonsensical. How many MHL fines can you give to someone who never rides a bicycle or indeed someone who always wears a helmet? Of course we should look to the Swiss for insights into how they've reduced their surf related drownings to zero. I'll take straw man for $500 thanks Alex.

NSW cyclists cop disproportionately expensive fines for not wearing helmets, researchers argue ABC 27 Oct 2019

UOW researcher Julia Quilter argued the fines were designed to raise revenue rather than improve safety.
...
The research suggests that penalties are out of proportion to other road-related offences.

wrote: The research, which looked at data on offences, fines and locations between 2016 and 2019, also suggests that some of the poorest government areas in NSW are copping the most fines.

As usual, they found one of the usual suspects who said that the fines were for our own good (in this case Centre for Road Safety executive director Bernard Carlon )

Thoglette wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:19 pm

NSW cyclists cop disproportionately expensive fines for not wearing helmets, researchers argue ABC 27 Oct 2019

wrote: The research, which looked at data on offences, fines and locations between 2016 and 2019, also suggests that some of the poorest government areas in NSW are copping the most fines.

I would like to know if that’s a result of targeted policing or simply because more people ride lidless in those areas. I know it suits the agenda of many to claim targeted policing but I’m not convinced. For instance if the police targeted cyclists in inner northern Melbourne they might get 10% or more from my observations. If they targeted Rosebud it would climb to 40-50%. There’s simply more of it. Same in outer northern Melbourne.

Oh, and that’s the same article Opik posted.

I would like to know if that’s a result of targeted policing

Just find the loco of the Highway Patrol Command branch for that region or part of the state and you will find the larger number of fines.

opik_bidin wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:13 pm

In 2016, the state government increased the fine for cyclists not wearing a helmet which now sits at $344.

By comparison a motorist driving 20km/h over the speed limit will be fined $280.

That really makes a joke of the whole thing. One offence can and does result in multiple deaths to others by the perpetrator (as well as themselves). The other one may result in an increased chance of harm to the perpetrator - but is of no consequence to anyone else.

Comedian wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:54 am

opik_bidin wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:13 pm

In 2016, the state government increased the fine for cyclists not wearing a helmet which now sits at $344.

By comparison a motorist driving 20km/h over the speed limit will be fined $280.

That really makes a joke of the whole thing. One offence can and does result in multiple deaths to others by the perpetrator (as well as themselves). The other one may result in an increased chance of harm to the perpetrator - but is of no consequence to anyone else.

In Victoria afaik the penalty for not wearing a helmet is the same as not using a seatbelt in a motor ve-hicle.

But no good whinging here, talk to Pauline, she might want to take it up if she smells a few votes in it!

Mike

Paulines GR8, should be PM IMO.

NSW cyclists cop disproportionately expensive fines for not wearing helmets, researchers argue

An interesting part of this is that there appears to be Police targeting in areas which potentially home to people who are lower income earners or in financial hardship.

Dr Quilter said the fines were not being consistently policed across the state.

"There are some areas such as Blacktown in Sydney's west which are very heavily policed [as well as in] some country areas," she said.

"A range of these areas have poor people, young people and often Aboriginal people who are significantly disadvantaged by these types of fines."

AUbicycles wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:58 pm

NSW cyclists cop disproportionately expensive fines for not wearing helmets, researchers argue

An interesting part of this is that there appears to be Police targeting in areas which potentially home to people who are lower income earners or in financial hardship.

Dr Quilter said the fines were not being consistently policed across the state.

"There are some areas such as Blacktown in Sydney's west which are very heavily policed [as well as in] some country areas," she said.

"A range of these areas have poor people, young people and often Aboriginal people who are significantly disadvantaged by these types of fines."

Interestingly State Revenue used to publish data on fines by Local Area Command, but I haven't been able to find them recently.

Micheal Kelly, "House of Cards" actor, former bike messenger, interviewed by Bicycling, no helmet photos, and the comment sections immediately lit up

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a2946 ... every-day/

The US National Transportation Safety Board has issued a recommendation that all US States implement compulsory bicycle helmet laws for all ages:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/ ... 2-BMG.aspx

There also recommendations regarding infrastructure, detection systems and conspicuity.

Scott_C wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:19 pm

The US National Transportation Safety Board has issued a recommendation that all US States implement compulsory bicycle helmet laws for all ages:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/ ... 2-BMG.aspx

There also recommendations regarding infrastructure, detection systems and conspicuity.

This is the paradox. The NTSB is responsible for road safety. Let's randomly pick numbers.. but in a country the size of the us.. if they MHL they could slash their cycling participation enough to reduce the total fatalities in a statistically significant fashion. So they might "save" the lives of 1000 cyclists - but loose another 50,000 citizens to inactivity related disease. If I was running the NTSB - #notmyproblem.

Even Qantas agrees

Scott_C wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:19 pm

The US National Transportation Safety Board has issued a recommendation that all US States implement compulsory bicycle helmet laws for all ages:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/ ... 2-BMG.aspx

There also recommendations regarding infrastructure, detection systems and conspicuity.

again the "passionate cyclist". Whenever I hear that term I immediately can read the next line of establishing a law that will punish cyclists.

Think its more political, The staff doesn't recommend, but the board then suddenly out of nowhere made it in.

Probably would reflect in cycle orgs in Oz too. members and staff say one thing, the leaders say the complete opposite
https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/11/05/ ... lmet-laws/

The National Transportation Safety Board voted 3-0 to recommend helmet laws even as staff members reminded panelists that such laws may reduce overall cycling, and lead to the “unintended consequence” of more road fatalities because fewer cyclists will mean less pressure on local officials to build the kind of protected infrastructure that is proven to improve cyclist safety.

The measure was not part of a set of recommendations that NTSB staff had drawn up for Tuesday’s meeting — those were approved without much discussion and included only a call for a national discussion of helmet laws. But board member Jennifer Homendy, who described herself as a regular cyclist who is “passionate” about safety, submitted the last-minute additional recommendation, citing the NTSB staff research that found helmet use reduces fatalities and injuries better than any single thing a cyclist can do.

“I understand there are concerns in the bicycle community that this could reduce the number of bicyclists,” she said, “but the NTSB’s mission is not about bicycle use. Our mission is safety.

A pretty myoptic view and obviously ignores the establish link between cycling rate and cycling safety.

One could similarly claim theat NTSB mission isn't about tranport use it is about safety therefore motorvehicles should be banned.

human909 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:42 am

“I understand there are concerns in the bicycle community that this could reduce the number of bicyclists,” she said, “but the NTSB’s mission is not about bicycle use. Our mission is safety.

A pretty myoptic view and obviously ignores the establish link between cycling rate and cycling safety.

One could similarly claim theat NTSB mission isn't about tranport use it is about safety therefore motorvehicles should be banned.

Like I said.. if they incur another few hundred thousand premature deaths through inactivity disease by eradicating utility cycling - well that's not their concern.

OK, now there is a pushback from transport organizations, and I think others will follow suit, especially for a recommendation that goes outside NTSB staff recommendation

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/11/08/ ... lmet-laws/
“NACTO strongly urges NTSB to remove the recommendation that states adopt mandatory helmet laws and work with their federal and state partners to enshrine the remainder of this critical, timely, and well-researched report into practice,”

“In cities where…adults [are] required to wear cycling helmets, cycling goes down — particularly for things like Citi Bike,”

Peter A wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:52 pm

Nothing will change my opinion re this.

And ... that is one of the biggest barriers in challenging the helmet cult.