Why ebikes are good / bad

[Joeblake]

My point was not about cars versus bikes per se, but rather about "electrical" experience eg how to "read" the specifications of a battery, to see whether it will be suitable for your requirements, understanding the difference between "normal" and "deep cycle" batteries, what is the cost:benefit ratio of choosing one type over another, say Lead Acid versus NiCad, whether having a combined Battery/SuperCapacitor combo will be a waste of money and so forth.

For people without much experience in such matters, they may find themselves relying upon the advice of other people who may in fact know even less. And as I say, riding or even building an e-bike will help to give people that hands-on experience which may be useful if one decides to buy an e-car, or even build a solar based battery charging system.

Joe

[cachexian]

Webman,
Your experiences with your ebike don't sound fantastic - especially the issues with going up hills in Sydney.

The ebike that I tried at the weekend (Ezeebike Torq) was really great with hills. It powered up hills with no troubles at all. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Lilyfield Rd Lilyfield, Battle Boulevarde Seaforth of Parriwi Rd Mosman but it powered up these steep hills at 20-25 kph with no fuss at all (I was pedalling).

Sure it was heavy and the bike is designed for comfort rather than speed. I tried to ride up Sydney Rd Manly without any power assist to see what it was like and it wasn't fun. With the fat squashy comfortable tyres it was hard to pedal without assistance at more than 25kph on the flat.

But while you've got juice left in the battery, the power more than makes up for itself.

I'm going to get an aftermarket kit and attach it to my flat bar road bike in the next few weeks. I'll post here when I do.

The 'fat squashy comfortable tyres' are Schwalbe Marathon Plus, inflatable to 75psi. We look forward to seeing your flat bar road bike conversion! Please bring it into the shop to show it off

Will do. Can't wait to do the conversion.

[alan101]

I posted this over on Bicycle Vic's forum. The thread also looks at speed limiting as part of the proposed new national power assisted cycle legislation, currently (9/2010) with fed DoI.

'NSW looking at electric bike wattage limit':
http://www.bv.com.au/forums/viewtopic.p ... &start=165

Motorcycle vs ebike advantages
by Alan101 » Wed 22 Sep 2010, 12:51 am

Motorcycle/scooter advantages:
1) the ads have a leggy chick waiting to get a leg over the pillion seat (which ebikes lack)
2) fill up in 5 mins at petrol station (vs 3hr charge with ebike, and need to know where you'll plug in to)
3) it goes 2-3x faster (and more when big) than an ebike.

Ebike advantages:
1) no rego fees
2) perhaps easier to store in the hallway.
3) you may experience a sporty satisfaction revving pedals out in different gears and improve fitness.
Ebike limitation: one ought to ride it weekly to keep the battery cycling (charge/discharge). Prolonged storage (eg 3mo) without cycling may see the battery degrade. Li-ion batteries cost $500-900, depending on brand and capacity; which is a partial offset against the rego savings above. My bike's 10Ah li-ion is $700 (50km range), and a 14Ah li-ion $900 (80km range). My battery is over 2 years old and still running strong. One should have a degree of commitment in owning an ebike. Like Xmas puppies, the battery won't thrive on neglect.

I'm not knocking ebikes here, and love mine. For someone spending $1600-$3,700 on transport, they should be aware of this stuff because transport is pivotal in having a job and social life, and can improve physical health in the case of ebikes. If the ebike is for a mature person looking for a recreational outlet, the ebike should be great. For the young commuter, an ebike can do a job of work if you're OK with the limitations. A committed cyclist mate said to me last weekend, that a 40km commute he did recently had 20 mins added (to 2hrs) due to a headwind and he could see how an ebike might be good.

[elStado]

I'd mark this "need for speed" as a downside of e-bikes. There is a temptation to upgrade to higher illegal wattages.

100% agree. It's human nature to try and make thing "go better", but is faster necessarily better? I don't think so.

With more speed you have high chances of person or property damage through accidents and mishaps, especially on a bike that has not been specifically designed for such power/speed.

Purpose built ebikes that are speed limited for the motor assistance (e.g. you can still go fast down hill as you can on any vehicle) would be the best. What speeds exactly needs to be further researched, but assuming they are riding on cycle lanes/infrastructure they have to be running at about the same speed as normal bikes, e.g. max speed of ~30kmph and average cruising speed of ~20kmph (requiring a moderate amount of pedal contribution).

The biggest issue is ebikes manifesting into what is happening in China, with people riding these "ebikes" which are in fact electric scooters, at high speeds and on cycle infrastructure, raising all sorts of issues.

[ColinOldnCranky]

How 'bout an electric unicycle?

http://www.gizmag.com/enicycle-electric-unicycle/12622/



Only trouble is it's got 1000 watts of power. A bit too much.

Joe

And it needs that power, though only for extremely brief moments of time - Unicycling involves high forces intermittently - accleration/deceleration over a couple of pedal revolutions sort of interval. Every time the wheel gets lightly behind the riders centre of balance it has to be adjusted rapidly before the balance is beyond salvaging. To make them legal they will need some sort of allowance for averaging power over short intervals.

[stealthbike]

My wife bought an ebike about a month ago. Previously she rode a Greenspeed recumbent for 5 years which she really enjoyed, commuting to work each day. Since she got the ebike, there has been a permanent grin on her face. After each ride she exclaims "I love my bike!"
80km on one charge, up to 30km/hr. Wind and hills are no longer an issue. Now we are able to ride together on weekends and I can still get a good workout.
She is regularly asked about her bike by curious other cyclists at intersections, usually after she has passed them slogging up a hill.
I see ebikes as a potential sleeping giant in transport. If more people knew about them, I am sure they would buy, particularly women.

[Joeblake]

Why not do what I did? Just add a motor and battery to the Greenspeed? Best of both worlds then.

Easy to ride, and you still get a big grin on your face.


Joe

[andynogo]

Bit of an old thread but newb poster. I have just converted a mountain bike to electric and you cannot help but grin as you go. I too believe they will take their place as a commuting tool- cheap to run and you don't have to put up with unpleasant body odor on the train or bus.

Another advantage of an ebike for commuting is that you don't arrive at work sweaty. Give it a few more years, a few more rises in the price of petrol and I reckon we will be seeing more and more of them on the streets.

[KonaCommuter]

Bit of an old thread but newb poster. I have just converted a mountain bike to electric and you cannot help but grin as you go. I too believe they will take their place as a commuting tool- cheap to run and you don't have to put up with unpleasant body odor on the train or bus.

Another advantage of an ebike for commuting is that you don't arrive at work sweaty. Give it a few more years, a few more rises in the price of petrol and I reckon we will be seeing more and more of them on the streets.

Pictures and specs of your bike would be appreciated

[redcloud1866]

Hi all, I was wondering if you could give me a hand. My commute to work is about 30k but I get a headwind going there and a headwind on the way back (most days). THis means that instead of the ride taking me just over an hour can take me up to 1.5hrs each way. Very frustrating. I'm looking for a electric assist for my road bike that is light and that I can turn on/off easily. I want to be able to ride every day, but this headwind takes too much out of my legs to do it daily. Does anyone know of a simple, i'm thinking front wheel electric kit that I can get somewhere? Preferable lith ion as they seem to better batteries. Any help appreciated...

[cachexian]

Where are you based redcloud? What is your bike forks made from? What is you average top speed that you can comfortably pedal against the headwind?

It sounds as if you are quite a fast rider - so will probably not be happy with any of the "off the shelf" kits.

Three alternatives that might be suitable for you:
- light motor kit in a 24" wheel and have it relaced into 700c for your bike.
- mid-mount kit
- Ezee kit (a bit heavier than some)

Read my review of the EVS Bafang motor. It's a pretty light motor.

I've been much happier with my Ezee motor but haven't yet had the time to ride it enough to give it a good review (the weather in Sydney's been so hopeless this year!).

C.

[redcloud1866]

Where are you based redcloud? What is your bike forks made from? What is you average top speed that you can comfortably pedal against the headwind?

It sounds as if you are quite a fast rider - so will probably not be happy with any of the "off the shelf" kits.

Three alternatives that might be suitable for you:
- light motor kit in a 24" wheel and have it relaced into 700c for your bike.
- mid-mount kit
- Ezee kit (a bit heavier than some)

Read my review of the EVS Bafang motor. It's a pretty light motor.

I've been much happier with my Ezee motor but haven't yet had the time to ride it enough to give it a good review (the weather in Sydney's been so hopeless this year!).

C.

THanks for your reply cachexian, I"m based in Melb. I ride north on the Western Ring Road path in the mornings then ride it back in the afternoon, my science friend told me that as the air heats up in the north it rises and creates a vacuum which lets in the sea breeze in the afternoon. As it's pretty barren, the winds get pretty hard, I"d imagine upwards of 25k. THe forks I got are steel, the frame is cromoly. On a windy day I"m pedaling in the low 20kms per hourf normal day I can ride a little over 30k on a flat for about an hour, but these winds kill me and it sometimes takes 1.5hrs to do a 60 min ride. I'll check out the Bafang motor. I think something that can be light and just give me that extra boost would suffice so that I can do the commute more regularly. I like the idea of a wheel mount motor with a smallish battery. How long do these batteries last? thanks again.

[Comedian]

Where are you based redcloud? What is your bike forks made from? What is you average top speed that you can comfortably pedal against the headwind?

It sounds as if you are quite a fast rider - so will probably not be happy with any of the "off the shelf" kits.

Three alternatives that might be suitable for you:
- light motor kit in a 24" wheel and have it relaced into 700c for your bike.
- mid-mount kit
- Ezee kit (a bit heavier than some)

Read my review of the EVS Bafang motor. It's a pretty light motor.

I've been much happier with my Ezee motor but haven't yet had the time to ride it enough to give it a good review (the weather in Sydney's been so hopeless this year!).

C.

THanks for your reply cachexian, I"m based in Melb. I ride north on the Western Ring Road path in the mornings then ride it back in the afternoon, my science friend told me that as the air heats up in the north it rises and creates a vacuum which lets in the sea breeze in the afternoon. As it's pretty barren, the winds get pretty hard, I"d imagine upwards of 25k. THe forks I got are steel, the frame is cromoly. On a windy day I"m pedaling in the low 20kms per hourf normal day I can ride a little over 30k on a flat for about an hour, but these winds kill me and it sometimes takes 1.5hrs to do a 60 min ride. I'll check out the Bafang motor. I think something that can be light and just give me that extra boost would suffice so that I can do the commute more regularly. I like the idea of a wheel mount motor with a smallish battery. How long do these batteries last? thanks again.

I reckon if you run it that hard for that long you'll go close to flattening the battery before you get home. Depends how much you pedal though.

Gazelle have a couple ebikes and you can option the bigger batteries on them. Thing is.. you have to pedal to access the power and most ebikers just want an electric motor bike so maybe that's not for you.

[cachexian]

If you're in Melbourne, go and have a chat with EVS - http://www.currietech.com.au

Their stock standard 700c kit is what I had. It'll bring your average up to about 25k against the headwind I'd say - and you'll still be working pretty hard. With that motor the 10Ah battery will easily give you 60k of range if you work your legs hard. As you'll probably gather from my review, I was happyish with that setup but it wasn't quite enough for me - and I suspect that you'll feel the same. The important thing to realise is that it won't give you any boost at all above 25kph so it gets you up to speed but then you're left cranking it on your own against the wind.

If you get a motor designed for 24" laced into a 700c wheel you'll get a higher top speed but it will drain your battery faster and you might have to charge up at work.

Equally with Ezee motor you'll probably need to charge at work unless you upgrade to 14Ah battery.

Ezee motor kit dealers in VIC are:

Cargo Cycles

eZeebike Dealer, Wisper Bikes Dealer

44 Glasshouse Road

Collingwood VIC 3066

Ph: 03 9942 3450

Mob: 0417 352 782

Website

Spokes

eZeebike Dealer, Wisper Bikes Dealer

32 Manchester Road

Mooralbark VIC 3138

Ph: 03 6278 7792

I've never tried Gazelle's pricey electric bikes but I understand they are pretty good. Then again, you were asking about a kit not a whole bike...

Best of luck.

C.

[Comedian]

I had an elation with the big battery and if I used the assistance a fully I could flatten the battery in 25kph.

It amazes me all these people that want 500 or 1000w motors to be legal - well you are going to have to pack a BIG battery pack onto the things to get any sort of range, which is going to make it a really heavy "push bike". IMHO those bigger motors and the accompanying batteries take the "bikes" to the point where it would be un-rideable without the electrics. But, I digress.

Have you considered a velomobile or recumbent? It would get you out of the breeze without all the other issues?

[rcmkII]

I have a 36v/12ah system using 3 sealed lead acid batteries on the rear pannier rack. (700c wheels on a Giant hybrid). No idea what the front hub motor is (I assume 200w), but I just did a 15km round trip and when I put one of the batteries on a 12v charger it went to trickle charge instead of the initial full charging mode, so I assume there was plenty of juice left. On the return leg I used the power a lot more and kept up a higher speed.

To qualify the above, I ride around 5000-6000 km per year on a range of different bikes, none of them electric, and I'm used to riding a long way (up to 90km at times) and keeping up a pretty fast avg speed. You might wonder why I've added an e-bike to my stable ... first, I like tinkering with bikes, and second, there are times when an ebike will make the difference between taking my car or a bike out. Third, it's a fun novelty

Anyway, when I pedal at a moderate rate I can sit on 30-35km/h on the electric bike, and it's 20-25km/h if I just toy with the pedals. I'll definitely experiment with range, but I don't have a remaining charge indicator and I don't want to run out of batteries 15km from home. Easy enough to pedal the thing back again, but I believe SLAs do not like sitting around on low charge.

[rcmkII]

Just a couple of data points - did a 40km ride on the ebike (36v/12ah/SLA batteries) the other day. Had a 30 knot headwind for the first 20ks, and I averaged 25km/h on the PSP. Turned for home, ran out of battery after another 5km but with the tail wind it was easy enough to complete the 40km.

I recently did a 20km round trip with my large trailer attached, to pick up some road bike rims and a couple of vintage bike frames. Moderate head wind all the way there, slight tailwind on the way back. Got home with the battery just starting to falter. That's with a trailer carrying quite a hefty load, but a fair bit of pedalling on my part. Without the ebike I would definitely have taken the car.

[rcmkII]

Another example: Yesterday I rode 20km in the morning on my regular (non-electric) bike, spent the day at an event, then rode home the other 20km in 40 degree heat. When I got home I was knackered, as you can imagine, but I hopped straight on the ebike and rode 8km to pick something up. Without the ebike I'd have just used the car.

[rcmkII]

I converted my wife's MTB to an ebike a couple of months back. She still has a road bike which she uses for exercise: the MTB is used for errands and heavier loads.

So far she's put over 1200km on the ebike, all of it 'car replacement' journeys. The ebike kit was about $320 from conhismotor, and the SLA batteries (2 x 12v12ah) were $80 or so for the pair.

So far that's three tanks of fuel saved (over $200 worth) in 2-3 months. In the past month she's gone from the occasional 10-15km errand to round trips of 40km+. If she continues at this rate I'd expect the bike kit to pay for itself in the next month or so, and after that we'll be saving about $1200 a year in fuel.

We're both mid-40s, reasonably fit, but there's no way she'd have tackled a 40km round trip with a heavily-laden bike on leg power alone. Maybe in a year or two when she's used to the distance, but in the meantime the ebike is getting her out there. (It's only a very low-powered setup which means there's still plenty of pedalling involved. What she does is to avoid using power until she needs it - for hills, and during the ride home.)

[Joeblake]

Cool.

Joe

[ColinOldnCranky]

I converted my wife's MTB to an ebike a ...

Sounds like the perfect case study for selling the virtues of e-bikes.

[rcmkII]

A month and a bit down the track and she now regularly rides 20-40km round trips on her ROAD bike (although the ebike is still getting occasional use.) The ebike odometer is on 1500km but the road bike has just reached 1000km.

12 months ago she firmly believed a 6km round trip was her maximum. That's quite a turnaround.

[Joeblake]

[ColinOldnCranky]

A month and a bit down the track and she now regularly rides 20-40km round trips on her ROAD bike (although the ebike is still getting occasional use.) The ebike odometer is on 1500km but the road bike has just reached 1000km.

12 months ago she firmly believed a 6km round trip was her maximum. That's quite a turnaround.

That's great to hear.

I do not know if your wife is riding road or not. But over the years at work many wannabe cyclists asking for my advice come from a position of being far to uncomfortable to tackle traffic. 9MHL comes a distant third.) Mostly I cannot give them any satisfaction because I live elsewhere and there is little rationale that is effective in getting someone who fears the road to get onto it. I wonder if some may find it a little less intimidating i, for a time, f they had a bike that they could just steer at those times of maximum insecurity.

[eldavo]

e-bikes can pick up a cheap celebrity soon if Lance Armstrong's brand image slides further.
Al Gore could resurrect him from a bankruptcy to head up a "cheating is good" promo for Gore's Electric Bikes.
Picture Lance way out in front alone on e-bike ahead of the TdF sprinters.
With a silhouette hidden in the crowd finish line of Bill Clinton not having sexual relations with a female on her knees in front of him. Clinton looks back, big grin, two thumbs up, speech bubbles from Lance and Bill saying "Cheating is Good... get a Gore Electric Bike today1"
Further back in the crowd a George W. Bush reference to him cheating to win the Presidency with some caged minorities that he is ripping right to vote forms out of their hands.

I did wonder while pedalling into the wind (not on e-bike) looking across to freeway traffic at the same speed, who is cheating who in that line of argument.