Plant Based Diet Thread

[am50em]

But does USA data correspond to Australia?

[Nobody]

But does USA data correspond to Australia?

I believe you asked this question before and the answer is still unknown. But it may be a good indicator of what is likely to be more problematic.

[am50em]

Yes I did. I would not assume US practices/results translate closely to Australian practices/results. They may, they may not.

[Nobody]

From wikipaedia

Barbara O'Neill (born 28 July 1953[1]) is an Australian alternative health care promoter who advertises unsupported health practices described as misinformation and a risk to health and safety by the New South Wales Health Care Complaints Commission.[2][3][1] She does not have any recognised qualifications and did not finish nursing training, and has presented her claims at alternative medicine organisations, wellness retreats, and Seventh-day Adventist Churches.[4][5] She is married to Michael O'Neill, the founder of the now-defunct Informed Medical Options Party, an anti-vaccination and anti-fluoride political group.[5]

Addressing the issue of a person's lack of dietary/nutrition qualifications.

Most of the plant based pioneers are the same. Many have qualifications in other fields, but not often nutritional science. T. Colin Campbell and his son Thomas being the exceptions IIRC. Most are MDs, but not trained in research. Yet Ornish, Esselstyn and Barnard are all well known for their research. McDougall was one of the most knowledgeable people in plant based research knowledge. But he was a MD. Goldhamer runs the most famous fasting center in the world that I know of. They claim to have seen 25,000 patients and never had a fatality. Yet he's a chiropractor. There are many examples.

So I try not to rule anyone out initially. I'm slowly building knowledge and experience. I think I have enough these days to compare what someone is saying with what I've learnt in the past. I use that as a test. But I've been conned in the recent past too from people like Greger, Fuhrman, Udo, etc. Saying that high fat plant foods are good for human health. I've since convinced myself from self experimentation/testing and listening to others that this isn't the case. Low fat is the way to go for the majority of people. Usually the lower the better. McDougall was the biggest advocate for that. Too bad I didn't take what he said seriously enough until recently.

The pioneers are self taught because the qualification system for dietitians/nutritionists is run by the food industries, as has been the case for over a century. That's why dairy is a food group and they were taught that everyone needs to get all the food groups. Clearly some RDs are moving away from that teaching. RDs and nutritionist are all about getting all the nutrients - often in abundance - over the long term harm the recommended foods often do. The results of these teachings are clear to see in many countries. My philisophy about food is the opposite. Avoiding harm and toxicity from diet is far more important that getting all the nutrients in abundance. Especially if one has no symptoms of deficiency. We only need tiny amounts of essential fats and very small amounts of protein.

As for Barbara O'Neill. I posted that video. But from what I've seen of most of the other videos she presents in, I wouldn't post anything else so far. Many have click bait titles and I disagree with much of what I've heard from her.

Anyway, no one makes us read this thread or click on any of the links. For all the unintentional misleading I've done in the past, I apologise. On subjects I'm not sure about I'll often post both sides of the story so people can make up their own minds.

[Nobody]

I'm surprised that I've gone this long without seeing the documentary "Forks Over Knives". I'm also surprised to find it's now free on YouTube. The link to it is on their Beginner's Guide page. It centers on the work of Campbell and Esselstyn, with McDougall and Barnard making appearances also. Like other similar documentaries I've seen, very convincing. I can see why it changed a lot of peoples' lives, because it was one of the first such documentaries, out in 2011.



I don't want to take away from the importance of this documentary. But for those who may face tumours of any kind in the future, I'll comment on one aspect of the video:
Campbell's finding on liver cancer showed that plant-based protein - in his case wheat and soy - did not promote tumour growth in rodents. Therefore people get the impression that plant proteins are safe. However, I've found in my case that a small amount of chicpeas significantly increased my ALT levels on the 08/02/2024 below. For plant foods, chicpeas are relatively high in protein density, fat and acidity. The results on 07/05/2024 was when I tried a small amount of oats. Oats are much higher in fat, about the same in acidity compared to chicpeas, but only 40% of the protein density. The ALT result wasn't as good as I'd like, but much better than the chicpeas. It's a simplistic comparison that I can't draw any conclusions from other than to say be careful with higher protein density foods like beans if you have tumours to deal with. Peter Rogers in one of his cancer videos has said similar. They are closer to animal products in both acidity and protein density.

[Nobody]

A short for him 5 minute 14 sec video.

Interesting as he's saying lowering his fruit intake made a big difference and hypothesized that the lower regulation of fructose in the liver may have a lot to do with it.

There is a longer video he has linked in this video where he goes into the possible added uric acid complications from too much fructose. Mainly to do with hypertension.

[Nobody]

Dementia set to become Australia’s leading cause of death - The Guardian

I'm posting above because it shows what a huge problem it's becoming in AU. Both my genetic and adopted fathers had it, died at 94 and 84 respectively. So something I need to take seriously. it's also related to a previous post on Ornishes dementia reversal study. So showing that dementia is primarily a diet borne disease. Also considered to be atherosclerosis of the brain by experts.
Previous posts:
viewtopic.php?t=89413&start=1975#p1614555
viewtopic.php?t=89413&start=1975#p1613313

[Nobody]

This video is mainly about strategies for weight loss. There is a bit on Kempner and sodium.

Also an interesting bit from Ancel Keys on body weight set points. The idea being that you have a genetic set point weight for a particular diet. So stating that diet is the primary variable factor for a person's weight set point. I've personally found this to be the case. On an average western diet, my set point was about 80 kg. And I'd be hard pressed to change that for any length of time before my body gravitated back. But these days with my current diet, the set point is more around 60 kg (in the morning, clothed), or about 63 kg in the afternoon. I find I can't get much lighter than that for long. Not that I'm trying to lose weight these days. But I'm also guarded about gaining weight too. Since it's generally unhealthy and leaves one prone to a weaker immune system, as Covid studies highlighted. Almost all the photos I saw of people who died from Covid (could have been all of them) were at least high end overweight to obese.

[Nobody]

Basically why we should avoid all processed foods. It has a list of the names or types of sources of glutamate. Videos 1 to 3 are his typical - overly complicated IMO - description of the processes involved.

Glutamate appears to be a strong flavoring for its weight, like salt or pepper. Only more addictive. I'm currently trying nutritional yeast to stimulate my immune system. Nutritional yeast extract is on the glutimate avoid list. Just 1 gram of nutritional yeast in 600g of grated carrot and I can taste it.

Actually 1g is about 20 times as much as required for the benefit I'm hoping for. Since one study in this NutritionFacts video shows an immune system change with just 15mg of beta-glucans. From the article below, "Yeast cell walls contain typically about 30% of β-glucans of dry weight."
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/ar ... 13-38#Sec2

[Nobody]

Not much new in the summary above. But I'm posting it because I've got some experiences and comments to add to it.

I agree that fat is a big problem both for short and long term blood pressure (BP) as it damages the arteries long term and restricts blood flow in the short term. I've seen my systolic drop by at least a few more points after going extremely low fat (<3% of Cal) for more than a month. BP tested with the correct procedure, my systolic is typically closer to 90 recently. With correct testing, it's never over 95 like in the past. Diastolic is still mainly somewhere between 60 to 65. Like today, at 17:45 it was 89/60 with a higher heart rate. At 21:10 it was 92/65 with a 8 bpm lower heart rate. I'd say I was more hydrated for the later result. Actually over the last 10 years, systolic has continued to drop, where diastolic has been stable. I remember in 2014 it was 115/65 - as measured by the GP. That's 23 systolic points in 10 years. But my current values would increase a bit if I increased the fat intake even a little more. It's more a factor of thinner blood from less fat, than better arteries. Also I used to do much more intense exercise which is known to thicken artery walls. It's considered an adaptation, but still not ideal with the information at hand currently. Many professional athletes have still had heart attacks.

As for sodium, I think the K:Na K-factor is more important than the total sodium intake. The reasoning for my opinion is that my current sodium is close to 1000 mg/d (a lot of carrots) where it should be < 500 mg/d for best results. However my K-factor is 13. So way above the minimum of 5.

[Nobody]

Want to live longer? Forget blue zones – these factors improve your chances of ageing well - The Guardian

If you're looking for specific advice to gain longevity in the above article, you'll probably be disappointed.

Just more on the Blue Zones being bogus. I don't think it says it in this article, but the only one that can be trusted for true age are the Loma Linda Adventists because they are in the US with legitimate age records. They also happen to currently be on average the longest living too. Even with the bogus numbers of other zones.

[Nobody]

New Report On Why Healthcare Settings Should Go Plant-Based By Default - PBN


UK focused. From the survey results shown it appears UK and European people are a lot more plant-based and environmentally focused than we are in AU.

[Nobody]

You would think this one should be common sense. But I've found common sense isn't that common. Still, better to hear the reasoning from Brooke first. Then what I wrote below will be easier to accept.

Covid studies and observation of who died illustrated that lighter people have better immune system functionality. As much as some people talk up being higher in the BMI range, it isn't as healthy.

Severe Covid symptoms versus BMI in hospital admissions.

[Nobody]

BREAKING: Dr Greger Examines Why Plant-Based Diets Are Better Than Ozempic In New Book - PBN

I'm not posting to help promote his book. Regular reader here don't need it and I think he saw an opportunity to sell books to the larger Ozempic audience by rewriting his "How Not to Diet" book with a focus on them. But I do agree with the following quote because I've been saying similar for some time.

Dr. Greger said: “It is kind of perverse that Big Food [has] addict[ed] people to junk food on purpose for profit, and then we fatten the coffers of Big Pharma to treat at high cost and some risk an array of health problems that need never have occurred in the first place.”

I doubt the industries are working together. But Big Food, Big Pharma, and the medical industries around the world are the beneficiaries of modern food addictions. It also becomes difficult to convince anyone there's a better way to eat when almost everyone is well immersed together in an addictive/obesegenic food culture. I'm reasonably sure that almost everyone I know thinks that I'm a nutter for eating the way I do.

[Nobody]

Adding to the glutimate post above, I was thinking about yeast extract and glutimate and how many years ago that there was a Chinese restaurant MSG scare. The supposed danger being the glutimate. But then I remembered that Vegemite is basically yeast extract and salt. Yeast extract being a glutimate source like MSG. So people were worried about Chinese restaurants at the same time as consuming a glutimate source on their toast - and probably many other ways from processed foods.

Why is this a problem? Well if you didn't watch the video in the previous linked post, it's because glutimate is an excitotoxin which can lead to neuron death and eventually demetia types of illnesses. As well as being an addictive product. Vegemite with 40% less salt ingredients below, from my family's pantry. I don't eat it.

[Nobody]

I've watched all 3 parts and I think this one is the most convincing with the monkey studies, etc.

[Nobody]

Be warned that the link below has language that is not ideal. But since it's OK for the ABC, it's probably OK for a general audience on this forum as well.

What on earth is grounding?! - ABC

Well according to Norman, I was conned. So I've removed my previous post on this above as the last thing I want to do is deceive others. I apologize to anyone I helped con too. I hope no one spent any significant money on this. I certainly haven't. Plenty of anecdotes out there on this. So the placebo effect is obviously real enough.

I let my wife and daughter try it some time ago and they both said it made them feel worse/uncomfortable, like it was picking up static or something. But they were plugging into the power ground pin, so definately possible. Probably good that that happened or I might have wasted money on them too. Live and learn.

[Nobody]

National Dietary Guides Should Be Based On Healthy Plant-Based Diet, Says Study - PBN

The linked study in BMC Journal - full text, very long.

A step in the right direction at least. It appears to be painting an ideal general population diet. So currently that makes it a which list, as it would take a very brave government to implement it in full. Give it another 20 years or so and the most ethical governments might implement it. Until then we're on our own.

For those who are battling illnesses or who are chasing ideal health, then less fat and protein than being recommended above are more likely to benefit. Less than 10% of energy for both.

For those who are particularly ill may also want to add eating 100% raw and/or multi-day fasting. I've tried both. 100% raw tends to improve the more critical components of my blood tests by about 20%. But it's generally considered only to be an extra 10% healthier by those with knowlege and experience with it. To be honest, I don't particularly enjoy doing either. But it can be a means to better health if chronically ill.

[Nobody]

The Best 5 Foods To Eat For Longevity, According To Plant-Based Doctors - PBN

I'm posting this because I disagree with some of it.

Nuts - The nuts studies were mainly paid for by industry and comparisons were made with a poor standard diets. You can make almost anything look good when you do that. If you're on a very low fat WFPB diet, eating nuts won't improve your blood glucose levels, atherosclerosis risk, or body weight. Videos on the dodgy science of nut studies can be found on Jeff Nelson's Vegsource site.

Legumes - The Blue Zones contributes to their healthy image. But a recent study shows almost all of the Blue Zones to be the product of poor record keeping and pension fraud. Legumes are relatively higher calorie density, high in protein and many are also higher in fat. I have not only found them to add body weight, but my liver blood tests were poor while consuming them - I believe this was mainly due to liver tumour growth. Maybe they probably work for the majority of healthy people, but they don't work for me. They aren't the best as a large part of the diet if one wants to keep their weight as low as feasible, or their protein and fat intake low.

Berries - Very healthy, but very expensive. Even in frozen form they are ~$12/kg. They also have some of the highest concentrations of pesticides and are difficult to wash properly. Strawberries and blueberries are on EWG's dirty-dozen list. Blueberries also stained my teeth, if that is important to anyone. Incidentally tomatoes are also technically a berry and usually much cheaper per kg.

Tubers - Although I haven't got anything against tubers, I note the mention of purple sweet potatoes and the Okinawan diet. Okinawa is one of the dodgy Blue Zones where the data can't be trusted. Also has anyone tried to buy purple sweet potatoes in AU? They are really expensive. Only the wealthy in AU could eat enough of them to really benefit. For average people it would be occassionally at best.

I'll also add that I think the focus on superfoods, or the need for these better foods as a necessity for longevity is somewhat of an expensive distraction from some of the main benefits of a low fat, SOS free, WFPB diet. Often without much, or any evidence to support it.

[Nobody]

Very useful for anyone who wants to lose weight or keep it off.




I found the slides he put up were the most interesting parts of the talk.

[Nobody]

Be warned that the link below has language that is not ideal. But since it's OK for the ABC, it's probably OK for a general audience on this forum as well.

What on earth is grounding?! - ABC

Well according to Norman, I was conned. So I've removed my previous post on this above as the last thing I want to do is deceive others. I apologize to anyone I helped con too. I hope no one spent any significant money on this. I certainly haven't. Plenty of anecdotes out there on this. So the placebo effect is obviously real enough.

I let my wife and daughter try it some time ago and they both said it made them feel worse/uncomfortable, like it was picking up static or something. But they were plugging into the power ground pin, so definately possible. Probably good that that happened or I might have wasted money on them too. Live and learn.

OK I'm back on this topic because Peter Rogers has tried it and is claimiing a subjective benefit when sleeping, in his book review above. Since he eats all his food for the day in the evening, poor sleep shouldn't be surprising. I'm also connected when sleeping, but haven't noticed a change with sleep. Probably because I slept relatively well for my age before I was connected. But then I eat most of my food in the morning and taper off during the day. I don't often have an evening meal currently.

He said he'll get a meter to measure objectively a change. Well I'm a telco tech. So I have a personal Fluke 115 multi-meter and have also used the better Fluke multi-meter at work to measure the change. Measuring at the fingers with and without being connected to ground through the sole of one foot. The reference is to the electrical earth pin. On the Fluke 115, on the AC Volt range, I get about a 100 mV drop between the disconnected level at an abolute of about 300mV and a connected level of about 200 mV. Who knows what that difference really means to the body. But at least there is one that's measureable.

[Sorry to pollute this thread with a different subject, but I think it's too small a subject to start a separate thread for. This may be the last post on the topic.]

[Nobody]

New Study Latest To Find Men Favor High-Impact, Meat-Heavy Diets - PBN

[Nobody]

Three-Quarters Of UK Dietitians Falsely Believe Plant Proteins Are Incomplete, Study Finds. - PBN

McDougall comprehensively covered this subject in his 2012 book "The Starch Solution". He had to publically correct the American Heart Association on this subject back in 2002. Although the truth has been known by a minority for many decades, it probably should be no surprise to find this misinformation still being found with dietitians. Since the food industries are typically major sponsors of dietitian bodies and have been involved with education in the past at various levels. It wasn't that long ago that dietitians were informing people that they had to eat all the food groups to be healthy too. Evidence of ignorance IMO. If not eating animal products, just make sure you get some B12 supplementation. Most of 65 y.o. need it anyway, regardless of their consumption of animal products or not.

If one really wants to learn about the best way to eat for health, just read McDougall's "The Starch Solution". Peter Rogers MD rates it as one of the 5 best nutrition books written on the subject.

My GP offered if I wanted to make an appointment to see their local dietitian. As I declined, I thought to myself that other than possibly a pleasant chat about diet, it would be a pointless waste of time. For new readers of this thread that have chronic illnesses, I'm sorry to say that GPs and dietitians generally aren't going to help you cure them. Medical practictioners are generally only good for scan and tests in this regard. That may help you know where you're at and possibly motivate you to action. But you're going to have to work out your path back to better health yourself.

I'm going for another 3 monthly bood test tomorrow to see if I'm making any progress with my haemochromatosis and liver tumours. I've tried some different eating patterns in this period, but I'm not confident I'm going to see improvements. Depending on what results come back, will determine the needed changes to try on my next 3 monthly testing period. I usually start the period by experimenting to see how I feel with some new changes. Then I sort out from that what I think is working. Then I maintain that pattern consistently toward the end for at least 3 weeks to get more accurate test results. If beneficial, I'll post the results and what I think may have worked. I may even post the failures if I think it might benefit others. I'll see...

[Nobody]

I've mentioned many times in this and the diet thread about industry funded studies that are false and just used by industry to market product to the unsuspecting public. Well below is an article that comes from what I believe are one of those such studies. I don't know it's funding sources, but I don't have to and neither do you. Just first watch the video linked below from Peter Rogers that I linked here in the Diet Thread. Then read the article here from ScienceDaily to see the stark differences. It's interesting to note when you read the whole ScienceDaily article how convincing it appears on the surface. But there are a number of claims in that article that I already knew to be false before I read it, which was a red flag to me. So I have posted an article below that says the opposite. The article is based on older science that usually wasn't industry funded, when scientists weren't as driven by money to be involved with deception.

Health Myths Dispelled: "Good" Omega-3 Fish Fats Make Cancer Worse

It goes to illustrate that I've undoubtably posted articles and studies in the past that were likely false too. I just didn't have the experience at that time to know any better. So I apologize for that.

[warthog1]

I've mentioned many times in this and the diet thread about industry funded studies that are false and just used by industry to market product to the unsuspecting public. Well below is an article that comes from what I believe are one of those such studies. I don't know it's funding sources, but I don't have to and neither do you. Just first watch the video linked below from Peter Rogers that I linked here in the Diet Thread. Then read the article here from ScienceDaily to see the stark differences. It's interesting to note when you read the whole ScienceDaily article how convincing it appears on the surface. But there are a number of claims in that article that I already knew to be false before I read it, which was a red flag to me. So I have posted an article below that says the opposite. The article is based on older science that usually wasn't industry funded, when scientists weren't as driven my money to be involved with deception.

Health Myths Dispelled: "Good" Omega-3 Fish Fats Make Cancer Worse

It goes to illustrate that I've undoubtably posted articles and studies in the past that were likely false too. I just didn't have the experience at that time to know any better. So I apologize for that.

I had a look. I am still on the flaxseed.
June 2002 is the date of the article.
Will need to do some more investigation. It makes the case that any fat at all is metastasizing.
First and only place I had read that. Yes I try not to eat much fat however already.
Not motivated to go vegan again but I could minimise the fish and chicken I eat more than I do.
I don't bunch ride anymore so cycling performance matters far less than it did. The half assed effort I did a few years ago saw me go backwards on the bike very quickly. Probably a calorie deficit..
Anyway prostate Ca in my dad, his mum died of breast Ca, and my mum's sister had breast Ca.
A sister has had skin Ca removed. There is certainly a familial Hx of Ca.