Plant Based Diet Thread

[Nobody]

I'm posting the below because it relates to the dangers of vit-D and also how one's blood levels may not be a good reflection what is stored in the body. IMO this may be important for more than just vit-D as I'll allude to later.



My speculation on the John McDougall's relatively early passing for a plant based eating expert. Which will likely taint his overall reputation IMO.
I read his book The Starch Solution and I got the impression that he reluctantly took B12 and suggested he didn't take it very often. Like the vit-D video above, if his blood levels don't reflect what's really stored in the body, or he didn't get tested for it because he knew the symptoms. Then it's possible that he may not have had enough B12 to make enough homocysteine. Which means his risk of stroke would have increased.
His passing encourages me to take B12 more often.

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Important video for those that are trying heal an illness. From the little I understand, fasting is the only natural treatment more effective than raw vegetables in healing from chronic illnesses. Also her reasoning on oxalates is convincing in countering the fear of them generated by others.

[Nobody]

Another one worth seeing. Plenty of quick advice for both ends of the spectrum. Her vast exerience in dealing with various problems shines in this vid.

[Nobody]

These two definitely worth a look if you have the spare time as they are both long. Maybe watch them a bit at a time.



In the first video, it was said that potatoes are in the dirty dozen at time of making. Not anymore according to the link below. They're now in the middle at No. 22. Sweet potatoes are in the clean 15 and No. 33.
https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/full-list.php



At about 11:32 he goes into what he thought the perfect diet was. Which I found informative.

[am50em]

Is Australia pesticides levels the same as US? Would like to see Oz data.

[Nobody]

Unknown as we don't have organisations like EWG. Unless a govt does it, I doubt you'll find much. The EWG plant types that are the worst does give us an indicator to what types of fruit of veg to limit if we're worried about it. Most of the dirty dozen is fruit, with some above ground veg. No root vegetables in that list. I don't currently eat anything in the EWG 2024 dirty dozen. But I may if it suited me. According to the WHO, the biggest way to be exposed to these chemicals is to work in the agricultural industries that they are used, or be applying them yourself. Neither of which I do.

As McDougall said in one of the videos above, the knowledge of plants having pesticides and herbicides residues plays into the hands of the animal product industries - so it's in their interests to subtly promote the idea. But animal products carry by far the most toxins due to bi-accumulation. So those who want to minimise toxins should avoid animal products and maybe be a bit more selective about what types of plant foods they eat. The wealthy can also get organic if they choose. Because IMO you need to be with the prices of most organic foods in AU.

[Nobody]

Multi-day fasting:

Related to diet - but I'm not going to start a new thread for it - is therapeutic multi-day fasting. Last week at about Wed 6:30am I ate an old onion which had brown bits at one end. It made me quite ill, being doubled over most of the time for the rest of the day. So when eating raw, be careful of the quality of food you're eating.

Anyway I met a guy at work who asked me about what I was eating and informed me that he had done a 3 day fast and felt better afterward. The same week I saw a episode of Limitless on TV. It was about fasting - IMO don't watch it for education though. Then I saw a Vegsource video on fasting featuring Alan Goldhamer who had released a new book. Well since I had already gone a 24 hours without eating by Thursday morning, I decided to try a 3 day (72 hour) fast. Knowing enough about it to know that refeeding was usually the most dangerous part, I got a Kindle version of Goldhamer's book to learn about that and what hydration was necessay while fasting. It was only $12 AUD.

Anyway, did a 75 hour fast and the refeeding over the weekend. Today (Monday 8th July) is my first day back on full eating and I've changed some aspects of my diet. I'll may report back on it once some time has passed and I reflect on if there are any noticeable changes. At least I can say I've done one now. I may consider doing another slightly longer one in the future if it helped. But I need to take some care as mine are unsupervised and I'm not the healthiest individual. So likely 5 days max.

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Omega-3 again:

More in the "toing and froing" of supplementing short-chain omega-3 fat intake for plant based health.



I think it comes down to knowing your current status by spreadsheeting your diet - as I have done for years - looking at your ratio and any symptoms and acting from there. Sure, for those on a standard U.S. diet - which is probably almost all of Goldner's patients - then it should have some benefit.

But to counter this for those already eating low fat, whole food, plant only diet. Prof T. Colin Cambell says the following:

5. The ideal ratio of omega 6:omega 3 is about 2:1 that is typical for a low fat, whole food, plant-based (WFPB) diet (10-12% fat). I know of no evidence that omega-3 supplementation has any beneficial effects for the WFPB dietary lifestyle.

6. For subjects on a pro-inflammatory Western diet, a massive meta-analysis of 89 cohort and randomized clinical trials published 7 years ago(1) concluded that " long chain and shorter chain omega-3 fats do not have a clear effect on total mortality, combined cardiovascular events, or cancer." Indeed, increased risk for cancer (although only of borderline statistical significance) "could not be excluded".

https://www.drmcdougallforums.com/viewt ... 15#p385752

Following Campbell's advice above would lean heavily to more benefit in cutting back on the foods with more omega-6, rather than supplementing even short-chain omega-3 foods. Since less total fat should lower CVD, diabetes and cancer risk.


Although older, the below information from McDougall seems to be more anti than pro short chain omega-3 supplementation. He's not against it, but points to many dangers that people might not have considered. The science he references is typically also long befoe studies became often industry funded. By all reports he was a totally honest individual to his own professional detriment and he used to say "the truth doesn't change".
https://www.drmcdougall.com/education/n ... -medicine/

[am50em]

I have done several 48-72 hour fasts over the last year. And just started one last night. I find I feel much better afterwards. I only do light exercise on day 3 but for first two days I exercise normally (obviously not too intense or excessive duration).

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fasting-benefits

https://usetemper.com/learn/metabolic-step-by-step/

[Nobody]

[Nobody]

For those of us who think there are "good fats" and that extra virgin olive oil is a beneficial addition, the following WFPBD study may interest you. Although both versions are still relatively high fat (48% or 32%), there were differences detected.

The below quote is from the study's discussion. EVOO = Extra Virgin Olive Oil, L2H = Low to high, H2L = high to low.

Nearly all metabolic biomarkers demonstrated similar responses to diet order when comparing the mean difference of change from baseline between groups: addition of EVOO after following a WFPBD with low intake (L2H) led to increases in lipids, glycemic measures, and hs‐CRP. In contrast, removal of EVOO after following a diet with high intake (H2L) led to decreases in these measures, suggesting that low EVOO intake may be more optimal for lowering CVD risk than high EVOO intake within this pattern.

(my bold)

Recipe for Heart Health: A Randomized Crossover Trial on Cardiometabolic Effects of Extra Virgin Olive Oil Within a Whole‐Food Plant‐Based Vegan Diet - Journal of the American Heart Association

Credit to PRCM, where I found the article.
https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrit ... ich-better

The golden looking olive oil looks pretty in the article above, but don't drink it. I use Australian EVOO - which has a more green colour - for moisturizing my hands. Which it works well for so far.

This study helps me to be more solidly grounded in the low fat camp. I shouldn't have doubted the integrity of the pioneers of low fat WFPB diets who had disease reversal studies on their side. The higher fat camp have little and likely rely on studies using the offset effect from SAD diets which make almost anything look good. Jeff Nelson of Vegsource has a number of videos explaining how they make nuts look good by doing this.

[Nobody]

Liver cancer growth tied to tryptophan intake - Medical Xpress

By removing tryptophan from the diet of mice, researchers stopped the growth of MYC-driven liver tumors and restored normal gene expression in liver cells. Notably, this dietary intervention did not affect protein synthesis in normal cells, suggesting a targeted therapeutic approach that spares healthy tissues.

It's a mouse study, so may not relate to humans as we have different protein needs. But it could be a pointer to a reason why a plant only diet can be helpful in reducing the rate of tumour promotion/growth.

I asked Bing's Copilot what foods were high in tryptophan. The answer was poultry, red meat, fish, dairy products, eggs, nuts & seeds, soy, beans and grains.

That might be one explanation as to why I couldn't get good ALT blood test results when eating beans or oats with my liver tumours. I'm currently eating none of the above. I'm due for another blood test on 6th Aug, so I'll see what happens.

[Nobody]

You Are What You Eat: What Does the 2023 Stanford Twins Nutrition Study Really Show? - T. Colin Campbell Center for Nutrition Studies

The summary I get of the article is of an opportunity lost. They could have got much bigger differences between the twins if they gave stronger direction of what the vegans were supplied, and advised to later eat when preparing their own food.

[Nobody]

OK, sharing blood test results because they are actually OK for a change. I also said I'd post what I ate if I ever got good results again. Well it was very simple and 100% raw. Net values eaten were about 2,5 kg of carrot, 1.5 to 2 kg of sweet potato, 320g of broccoli, 350g of cauliflower. That's it. Besides water and 3 Camomile teas per day.



For new readers, I have haemochromatosis and 2 - supposedly benign - tumours on my liver. Which make my liver sensitive to certain foods.

Points of interest:

Iron saturation - All the previoius results were more like 90% raw. It took 100% raw for my saturation to come down to normal levels.

ALT - Requires 100% raw to get under 20. Although most of the previous results were still in range.

ALP - High this time, which I believe is because I was eating virtually no omeg-3 fats and carrots supply quite a omega-6 load. So the ratio was about 17:1. When I looked up what to do to lower ALP it said eat more omega-3. So that is what I'll try to do over the next few months.

I'll mention I don't like eating raw. I just do it because I have to. It messes with my digestion. So as I'm on 3 monthly blood tests, I'm planning at some point to try cooked sweet potato and see what difference there is. So all the same foods, just one food cooked. I suspect the result won't be good, but I need to know if it's that the food is raw, or that it's just a good combination of foods this time.

From memory, 7/5/2024 was some oats and 8/2/2024 was some chickpeas. Oats are supposed to be good for liver function and chickpeas are supposed to be good for preventing the metastasis of cancer cells.

[Nobody]

[Nobody]

From the (extreme?) low fat end of the healthy fats spectrum.

[Nobody]

Stanford Professor: ‘Doctors Don’t Get Any Nutrition Education’

No surpise for regular readers. As I've indicated for years, be careful who you get your dietary advice from.

I've been chasing the optimum diet for humans for 10 years and I'm still not 100% sure what that is. Mainly due to misinformation by various vested interests that in many cases use studies that compare the food type being promoted to the worst standard western diet foods. A number of well meaning plant based influencers/professionals have also been deceived by the industry funded studies and passed on that deception on to others like me. Then unfortunately I do likewise on this thread. But after hearing about how honest John McDougall really was, I'm trying to migrate to "The Starch Solution" in the healthiest way I can manage and see what my blood tests look like in November. While I'm not confident I'll get good results, it's worth a try.

[Nobody]

This is the long version of the post 2 up. He goes into more explanation as to why all forms of omega-3 fats are bad and why he doesn't have any. He also says the omega 6:3 ratio is overrated and he doesn't even check it on himself. He also stresses the importance of LA in the body. Although he stresses you need very little of either ALA or LA which can be had from basic non-fatty foods. He says in his opinion that the human diet should be less than 5% of energy total fat intake.

If you can ignore the rants, I think there's some useful information in there. He's certainly well read.



His comments have given me pause for thought. So I've largely stopped supplementing omega-3 and I think I feel better for it. But it means my omega 6:3 ratio is high with all the carrots I'm eating. Unlike people with auto-immune diseases (like Lupus). I'm trying to increase my immune system's activity or effectiveness. So higher omega-3 fats aren't a good idea for that.

[Nobody]

Progress in the U.S. influences progress around the world.

US School Children Get More Access To Healthy Plant-Based Foods Under New Rules - PBN

[Nobody]

Study links bananas, oats and yoghurt to greater diabetes risk in susceptible children - The Guardian

Other than the yoghurt as a dairy product, the article is a surprise in some respects. But I suppose it shouldn't be if one believes pesticides are a problem. Since oats and wheat both have an exposure to herbicides and pesticides. But then so do berries. So maybe the phytochemicals have greater positive effects than the pesticides' have negative effects.
https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/dirty-dozen.php

[Nobody]

An older one I've likely posted before about 5 years ago, but worth another look as it shows the danger of eating nuts when on a healthy starch based, low fat diet.



Intesting video below. He mentions that beans may affect cancer growth because of the high protein level. My blood test results back this with poorer results eating beans. Also beans usually have positive levels of acidity which also isn''t considered favorable when trying to limit tumour growth. He mentions at the end using medical tests like PSA he used as an example. I primarily use the blood test ALT which is a compound only produced by the liver to show decay. AST is related, but can be produced by other parts of the body as well. A lot in the video that I agree with. But as usual, I don't agree with everything he says. I'd add to what he says by saying if you want to do better, then try a 100% raw starch/vegetable diet with the purpose of increasing immune function. It works better for me according to blood tests. Even better may be to try multi-day fasting to help activate your immune system.



Speaking of multi-day fasting, I'm on the fourth day of a planned 5 day water-only fast. It ends on Sunday morning. I hope to get there so I can try a 7 day fast some time next year, or when the opportunity or need presents. 7 days is considered the limit for unsupervised multi-day fasting. So if I go over that in the distant future, I want to make sure I've already done 7 days without problem first.

To be honest, this fast has seemed more difficult that the previous 3 day I did earlier this year. Even for the same time period. I've felt generally rubbish and constantly out of energy. Maybe it was the mainly cooked food diet i was on before this fast.

[Nobody]

Vegan Mediterranean Diet Better Than Standard Mediterranean Diet for Metabolic Health - PCRM

That should be obvious for regular readers. So as has been told in the past, the benefit of a Mediterranean diet is not in the olive oil or the animal products, but in the veg. After all it was originally based on a Sicilian diet from the '50s, when the people were too poor to buy animal products. So it was mainly a vegetarian diet.

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I got through my 5 day water-only fast as of now. But I've still got about 4 hours to go because refeeding is complicated and I've got some things to do this morning. It got easier as I went somewhat because I learnt to proactively hydrate more. Dehydration is the biggest problem associated with multi-day fasting because it's so easy to get when you can't rely on fresh fruit and veg to hydrate you.

The reason for the fast was that some cooked foods were messing me up and increasing my blood pressure to a point where I was getting a bit dizzy. So I measured it and it was 110/70 at home, where it was typically 96/60. I tested it again yesterday afternoon after 4 days and 4.5 hours of fasting, and it was back down to 92/56 with a heart rate of 55. Great results for me because the 55 bpm heart rate - which my urine colour before confirmed - shows I wasn't dehydrated and therefore the BP results were accurate.
Fasting is a bit of a trial, but according to this True North study, it is the most effective way to reduce BP in the short term. In this case the knowledge I've acquired about diet and fasting has paid off by digging me out of trouble.
Unfortunately it looks like I'll need to continue raw as cooked foods weren't working out for me for now. Maybe cooked foods again some time in the future. And I'll need to be more careful in my selection.

[Nobody]

Some may have been curious about this book.

[Nobody]

This one might be of value to some. Although as usual, I don't necessarily agree with everything she says.




I've been having digestion issues with raw starches and have found the addition of "savory fruits" to help with that so far. However, what blood tests results I get from this change is yet to be determined.

[am50em]

From wikipaedia

Barbara O'Neill (born 28 July 1953[1]) is an Australian alternative health care promoter who advertises unsupported health practices described as misinformation and a risk to health and safety by the New South Wales Health Care Complaints Commission.[2][3][1] She does not have any recognised qualifications and did not finish nursing training, and has presented her claims at alternative medicine organisations, wellness retreats, and Seventh-day Adventist Churches.[4][5] She is married to Michael O'Neill, the founder of the now-defunct Informed Medical Options Party, an anti-vaccination and anti-fluoride political group.[5]

[Nobody]

Yes. I didn't encourage anyone to watch any of her other videos. But the above might be worth trying for some. Usually not much harm in trying different combinations of fruit and veg.

[Nobody]

This article has a fair amount of extra commentary/detail, rather than just the EWG list. If you have a dig through the blog, there are individual articles on particlar plant foods too, like some blueberries for example.

The Dirty Dozen & Clean Fifteen: The Most & Least Pesticide-Contaminated Fruits and Vegetables - Food Revolution Network