the Crazy eDevice rider thread

[Anrai]

1. it's a 60 zone. PMDs are not allowed on the road where the speed limit is above 50km/h. on footpaths the speed limit for PMDs is 12km/h

It does say she was on the footpath and the driver was pulling out, nothing on how fast she could've been going.
Might've been edited since you posted as it now says she's 12 rather than early teens.

[redsonic]

1. it's a 60 zone. PMDs are not allowed on the road where the speed limit is above 50km/h. on footpaths the speed limit for PMDs is 12km/h

It does say she was on the footpath and the driver was pulling out, nothing on how fast she could've been going.
Might've been edited since you posted as it now says she's 12 rather than early teens.

The article originally stated she was riding on the road. It certainly changes the story with her on the footpath and the car pulling out. Still, 12 is too young to responsibly ride an escooter.
Unfortunately, all this sad event will do is encourage more parents to drive their kids to school to "keep them safe"

[jasonc]

yep. i came to post and state the article has changed. still have questions about:
riders age
riders speed

driver is still mostly responsible for incident

edit: no CTP for PMD riders
PMD rider most likely illegal anyway as not 16 or older.

[redsonic]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-21/ ... /104250204

The article has been updated again to say the girl had crush injuries from being trapped under the car and needed resuscitation at the scene.
Sounds like she's lucky to be alive (so far).

A short bit talking up the dangers of escooters:

Mr Hucker said there was a higher rate of crashes and injuries among e-scooter riders compared to cyclists.

"Families that are buying e-scooters for kids, make sure you're putting all the safety measures around the use of those e-scooters," he said.

Nothing about families NOT buying e-scooters for kids under 16

[jasonc]

A short bit talking up the dangers of escooters:

Mr Hucker said there was a higher rate of crashes and injuries among e-scooter riders compared to cyclists.

"Families that are buying e-scooters for kids, make sure you're putting all the safety measures around the use of those e-scooters," he said.

Nothing about families NOT buying e-scooters for kids under 16

wait a day or two for the family to come out and say it wouldn't happen if PMDs were required to be licensed or registered (or something of the sort)

[OnTrackZeD]

A short bit talking up the dangers of escooters:

Mr Hucker said there was a higher rate of crashes and injuries among e-scooter riders compared to cyclists.

"Families that are buying e-scooters for kids, make sure you're putting all the safety measures around the use of those e-scooters," he said.

Nothing about families NOT buying e-scooters for kids under 16

wait a day or two for the family to come out and say it wouldn't happen if PMDs were required to be licensed or registered (or something of the sort)

Of course they will, zero personal responsibility.

[Andy01]

There are a few things odd about this;

When I first saw it on newsfeeds yesterday, it showed a photo (from across the road - different angle to the video in the lick above) of the Kia (Kia 4 apparently, then changed to Rio), and there was a wheel lying on the footpath near the car. How did the vehicle lose a wheel ?

As mentioned she was only 12, therefore riding illegally (no mention of this though).

If the car was either driving forward or reversing out of a driveway, how does the car end up stopped in the actual road (not supposed to move the car after an accident, especially if a person is under it) ?

How was the car going fast enough to cause such dramatic injuries (2 collapsed lungs, ruptured spleen, broken elbow, possibly broken neck, possible brain damage (no oxygen for 21 minutes), leg injuries, broken teeth etc etc) to the scooter rider ? Most cars come out of a driveway at walking speeds. Raises questions about whether scooter smashed into the car at high speed ? No charges laid against the P plater driving the car, which may indicate it wasn't the driver's fault.

Mother's version of events is "She was traveling up a hill when she saw a car backing out of a driveway, and tried to swerve, but it all happened so fast". First question is - how does she know that if the girl has life-threatening injuries and is in an induced coma on ventilation after being "dead" for over 20 minutes - has the daughter spoken to her ? Second question is around speed (assuming the daughter's version is correct) - if she was going UP a hill and saw the car moving towards her, surely braking would have been more effective (up a hill) - seems like a lack of experience (which isn't surprising for a young unsupervised rider).

I would wonder whether she did brake or swerve and possibly come off the scooter and the car didn't see her (because she was perhaps on the ground) and reversed over her - which may cause the serious injuries (it mentions a tradie stopped and tried to jack the car up to get it off her). A car would have to have been doing some real speed (out of a driveway) to hit a scooter, and then run over the rider so that the car is on top of the rider. Many questions ??

Whichever way it is bad for the young girl. Interesting that no report I have seen mentions that a 12yo cannot ride a scooter unsupervised.

[jasonc]

Whichever way it is bad for the young girl. Interesting that no report I have seen mentions that a 12yo cannot ride a scooter unsupervised.

I posted in our community facebook group overnight reminding people of the rules around escooters. Hopefully it gets parents to ask questions
Agree that there's no winners in this situation. Just frustrated at seeing kids riding these things with no regard for the law, or consequences.

I hope the girl's condition improves.

[redsonic]

More than half of Broome e-scooter riders that crashed and went to hospital admitted to being intoxicated:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-24/ ... /104250306

The majority were locals, not tourists.

It looks like the rental scooters provided are more suitable for the rougher roads there:

[Lukeyboy]

I would wonder whether she did brake or swerve and possibly come off the scooter and the car didn't see her (because she was perhaps on the ground) and reversed over her - which may cause the serious injuries (it mentions a tradie stopped and tried to jack the car up to get it off her). A car would have to have been doing some real speed (out of a driveway) to hit a scooter, and then run over the rider so that the car is on top of the rider. Many questions ??

Unfortunately from what I have heard that is what has happened. The girl has ended up on the ground between the wheel tracks of the car that was reversing before being dragged underneath the vehicle unknown to the driver at the time.

Whichever way it is bad for the young girl. Interesting that no report I have seen mentions that a 12yo cannot ride a scooter unsupervised.

I posted in our community facebook group overnight reminding people of the rules around escooters. Hopefully it gets parents to ask questions
Agree that there's no winners in this situation. Just frustrated at seeing kids riding these things with no regard for the law, or consequences.

I hope the girl's condition improves.

Its one of those things. The qld law was a knee jerk reaction with little to no provision or consultation and to shift blame by shifting the onus onto the rider and onto council rather than coming up with safety design and infrastructure plans. Its not the first time we have seen similar knee jerk reactions or things passed through quickly with little or no consideration. Its just a checked box rather than designing something that people can, will and do use. Look at the new Queensland trains. 4 bike spots per train. A lot more people already catch trains with more than 4 bikes and escooters. Wonder how they would go with the return on the Brisbane-Gold Coast bike ride Even motorbike laws a decade ago were swiftly passed through to try and reduce deaths. Only problem was the death rate dropped in the lower age category but continued to rise in the older age category. Turned out the safety design and standards were contributing to deaths such as the metal slicing reflectors on top of guard rails instead of the bendy plastic ones or the lack of rub rails (the lower section of guard rail to prevent riders from hitting the support poles)/barrier terminal ends. Fatalities and serious injuries in a lot of these dangerous areas dramatically dropped as a result. Who would have thought appropriate designed infrastructure would help reduce serious injuries and fatalities.

Sure many can make assumptions about what has happened but they are assumptions. And being young isn't always a blanket excuse. Physical inexperience is a problem. You can be young and have experience. You can be old and have no experience. Which is what happens alot with scooter, escooter and skateboard riders. Young kids and those that ride them more frequently have better skills than those that don't. You pick up on what to avoid and what to look out for. The exact same applies to cyclists. If you ride on a lot of footpaths in Queensland you notice things that those from Victoria and NSW don't as its legal in QLD but illegal in NSW/Vic. One of the biggest problems with escooters when they started here in Brisbane was new people putting their foot down while still moving. All that did was make them do a superman onto the pavement. In quite a alot of instances in the act of falling actually triggered the throttle as the riders hand moved around. Remember you fall differently on scooters which is why facial injuries are higher vs cyclists.


Not buying a skateboard for your 14 year old son because you think its dangerous meanwhile some 13 year old girl from the Gold Coast who had been shredding it at skate parks is now pulling off 720s in skate competitions. Similar to the dutch where if you foster a familiar environment more people become accustom to it. Go over to Spain and ask when kids should start racing motorbikes and then ask people here the same question. Ask the Dutch when/where kids should ride bikes and then ask people that very same question here. People in high cycling areas are more accustom to bikes than those who may not see many of them.

[jasonc]

Luke - like all others here, I'm all for segregated paths for all modes of transport. Instead our state government is going to spend money on speed knitting in 2032. I don't see segregated paths happening in my life time. What could happen in our life time is a change of attitude, but it has to come from the top

[fat and old]

Not buying a skateboard for your 14 year old son because you think its dangerous meanwhile some 13 year old girl from the Gold Coast who had been shredding it at skate parks is now pulling off 720s in skate competitions.

900’s. In front of Tony Hawk. Japanese blood seems to make the difference!

[jasonc]

A short bit talking up the dangers of escooters:

Mr Hucker said there was a higher rate of crashes and injuries among e-scooter riders compared to cyclists.

"Families that are buying e-scooters for kids, make sure you're putting all the safety measures around the use of those e-scooters," he said.

Nothing about families NOT buying e-scooters for kids under 16

wait a day or two for the family to come out and say it wouldn't happen if PMDs were required to be licensed or registered (or something of the sort)

called it

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-25/ ... /104262376

Mum regrets buying scooter

Ms Cronan said she wished he had never bought the scooter, and is determined to warn other parents against making the same "mistake".

"We fought with Ruby for weeks over this scooter, and she cracked us. We gave in," Ms Cronan said.
"There needs to be an inexpensive licence that comes with it, and you've got to do a day course on them.

"They're like giving your kid a motorbike. I wouldn't have bought [Ruby] a motorbike."

[elantra]

wait a day or two for the family to come out and say it wouldn't happen if PMDs were required to be licensed or registered (or something of the sort)


called it

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-25/ ... /104262376

“Mum regrets buying scooter

Ms Cronan said she wished he had never bought the scooter, and is determined to warn other parents against making the same "mistake".

"We fought with Ruby for weeks over this scooter, and she cracked us. We gave in," Ms Cronan said.
"There needs to be an inexpensive licence that comes with it, and you've got to do a day course on them.

"They're like giving your kid a motorbike. I wouldn't have bought [Ruby] a motorbike.”

That news article linked is very informative.

And to quote from it further :-
“Kidsafe’s Qld CEO Susan Teerds said the data suggested that current e-scooter regulations, such as age limits and mandatory helmets were “not working”, possibly due to lack of enforcement and public awareness.
Ms Teerds said a “multifaceted approach” involving parents, retailers, schools and community groups was needed to better protect young e-scooter riders.”

To be honest, I wonder why there has not been a more prominent stance taken by the High Schools on this issue.
And I half expect that getting parents and retailers on board with this issue would be like herding cats.

[jasonc]

the retailers are making money so they don't care. the kids are mostly getting to school, so they don't care. the kids aren't whinging to parents, so they don't care....
there's a theme

[Andy01]

I have to say that something has changed in my area. I started seeing kids going to school on escooters pretty much every morning on my rides a couple of years ago. I had a couple of "run-ins" with schoolboys riding escooters (badly) to the local high school, including being taken out in a head-on collision with one when he came around a blind curve on a shared path on the wrong side of the path, doing well over the legal 12km/h, and then the kid did a runner while I was still on the ground. Both were about 12 months ago.

I emailed the school photos & a very short snip of video on both occasions so that they could identify the kids (I posted back then in this thread), and I informed them of the basic rules, and the potential liability or at least blow-back to the school if one of their kids in full uniform injured or worse a pedestrian on the paths. I strongly advised that they do some policing of kids arriving at school on illegal (ie. kids under 16) scooters, and also do information campaigns with parents, and potentially ask the police for a local cop to visit to educate kids (& parents).

I cannot remember the last time I saw a kid going to school on a scooter - it would have to be months ago (at least). I still ride the same route and roughly the same time every morning, so either the school actually did something (which would be refreshing) or the local kids have chosen to take a different (it would be much longer) route to avoid the "grumpy old man on the bike".

So maybe change is possible if schools, police, councils etc put in the effort ?

[Andy01]

A short bit talking up the dangers of escooters:

Nothing about families NOT buying e-scooters for kids under 16

wait a day or two for the family to come out and say it wouldn't happen if PMDs were required to be licensed or registered (or something of the sort)

called it

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-25/ ... /104262376

Mum regrets buying scooter

Ms Cronan said she wished he had never bought the scooter, and is determined to warn other parents against making the same "mistake".

"We fought with Ruby for weeks over this scooter, and she cracked us. We gave in," Ms Cronan said.
"There needs to be an inexpensive licence that comes with it, and you've got to do a day course on them.

"They're like giving your kid a motorbike. I wouldn't have bought [Ruby] a motorbike."

It would have been refreshing if the mum had admitted that she did not bother checking the rules and bought her kid an illegal device to ride to school.

I don't get the "we cracked" bit - to me it is a fairly easy discussion for a parent. "Um, no, you cannot legally ride an e-scooter to school, or anywhere else, unless a parent is there supervising you". It is no different to telling your kid that they cannot drive a car to school when they are 15. The "licence" bit is somewhat irrelevant - there is a clear law that says it is not legal for a 12yo to ride a e-device unsupervised, so there is no need for a licence as well.

Why wouldn't they have bought a motorbike - because the 12yo couldn't legally ride it (and that law has been around long enough for most people to know it)

But my guess is that the parent(s) were too lazy to check and assumed that if the kid was asking and they could simply buy the scooter (without any obstacles to the purchase) that it was legal.

[Mububban]

And the danger is of course, that all the kids who ARE doing the right, legal thing ie walking, riding bikes or on-e scooters etc, could still get hospitalised (or worse) by another kid hooning around on an illegal e-scooter. There will need to reach a certain critical mass of injured/dead children before sufficient momentum gathers to "do something about it." They are a brilliant form of urban transportation that have enabled so many to travel with ease, but the downsides are also very obvious. But as others have said, while it's easy and everyone's happy (except those injured or dead), then nobody will do a thing about it.

[uart]

Why wouldn't they have bought a motorbike - because the 12yo couldn't legally ride it (and that law has been around long enough for most people to know it)

I think that it really all comes back to lack of enforcement Andy.

You can be sure that the kids main argument that broke the parents would have been, "but everyone else is doing it", and indeed this would have been the main driver in the kid wanting one so much in the first place. But why exactly is everyone else doing it? Lack of enforcement of course, so it's kind of self perpetuating.

[jasonc]

Why wouldn't they have bought a motorbike - because the 12yo couldn't legally ride it (and that law has been around long enough for most people to know it)

I think that it really all comes back to lack of enforcement Andy.

You can be sure that the kids main argument that broke the parents would have been, "but everyone else is doing it", and indeed this would have been the main driver in the kid wanting one so much in the first place. But why exactly is everyone else doing it? Lack of enforcement of course, so it's kind of self perpetuating.

good news is that most likely the mum will talk to that school, and the local cops. maybe they will see some change on the sunny coast. My dealings with the sunny coast policy haven't been positive. I wish her luck

[antigee]

There are a few things odd about this;

When I first saw it on newsfeeds yesterday, it showed a photo (from across the road - different angle to the video in the lick above) of the Kia (Kia 4 apparently, then changed to Rio), and there was a wheel lying on the footpath near the car. How did the vehicle lose a wheel ?

As mentioned she was only 12, therefore riding illegally (no mention of this though).

If the car was either driving forward or reversing out of a driveway, how does the car end up stopped in the actual road (not supposed to move the car after an accident, especially if a person is under it) ?

How was the car going fast enough to cause such dramatic injuries (2 collapsed lungs, ruptured spleen, broken elbow, possibly broken neck, possible brain damage (no oxygen for 21 minutes), leg injuries, broken teeth etc etc) to the scooter rider ? Most cars come out of a driveway at walking speeds. Raises questions about whether scooter smashed into the car at high speed ? No charges laid against the P plater driving the car, which may indicate it wasn't the driver's fault.

Mother's version of events is "She was traveling up a hill when she saw a car backing out of a driveway, and tried to swerve, but it all happened so fast". First question is - how does she know that if the girl has life-threatening injuries and is in an induced coma on ventilation after being "dead" for over 20 minutes - has the daughter spoken to her ? Second question is around speed (assuming the daughter's version is correct) - if she was going UP a hill and saw the car moving towards her, surely braking would have been more effective (up a hill) - seems like a lack of experience (which isn't surprising for a young unsupervised rider).

I would wonder whether she did brake or swerve and possibly come off the scooter and the car didn't see her (because she was perhaps on the ground) and reversed over her - which may cause the serious injuries (it mentions a tradie stopped and tried to jack the car up to get it off her). A car would have to have been doing some real speed (out of a driveway) to hit a scooter, and then run over the rider so that the car is on top of the rider. Many questions ??

Whichever way it is bad for the young girl. Interesting that no report I have seen mentions that a 12yo cannot ride a scooter unsupervised.

Most but not all drivers come out of driveways at walking speed...in Vic' and when first moved here rode to school partly on footpaths with my daughter and soon changed from doing this due to number of near misses - I even reported one driver after their 3rd with not even a hint of a look and pulling out at a speed - turns out had no license. Walking the doggo drivers exiting blind are a regular event...yes some are cautious and I'd be generous to say most

as to wheel off and car being in road I suspect aftermath of extracting the girl - hope she does manage a good recovery

as to long term need to reduce the dominance of fast moving cars in urban areas - why can't a kid ride to school safely

[Mububban]

I've recently seen a guy near me riding an e-something, like a sit down motorbike not a standup vehicle, I don't think it evens pretends to be an e-bike, looks more like a scooter platform with no pedals. With a long "chopper" style seat? Haven't had a really good clear look at it yet, but I swear the small (16 inch?) wheels on it must be 20cm wide.


Very roughly looks something like this which seem to often be around 2000W and can weigh 90kg :

[Anrai]

if one of their kids in full uniform

Funny, my local public highschool's solution to kids being a nuisance in uniform was I never saw those kids wearing uniforms again.

[Andy01]

as to long term need to reduce the dominance of fast moving cars in urban areas - why can't a kid ride to school safely

It is entirely possible that the driver reversed out at some speed, but as the story unfolds it seems likely that the scooter was traveling too fast, the girl panicked when she saw the car moving and either fell off or went over the bars - directly into the path of the reversing car at low level where the girl was not visible to the (inexperienced) driver, resulting in the car riding right up over the girl and pinning her underneath (which, as you say, is probably why a wheel was off). All I have heard about the driver is that the parents, and (as far as I know) police have not blamed her for anything and no charges have been laid - which seems to indicate that the fault lies elsewhere.

I don't know about the newer Kia Rios but the older ones did not have reversing cameras (my mum drove one until recently).

There is a common theme to this - in many situations where people can access potentially dangerous "things" without any real restrictions or the need for compulsory training, bad things tend to happen - how many people are injured or worse in USA by people who bought a firearm and have no idea how to use it, and have never been trained. In Australia, particularly a couple of decades ago, P platers got their first car, often a beaten-up old "Big 6" (especially males) with no training on how to use/manage the power that it still had, e-device owners (including parents who don't ride themselves) can simply buy something that it more dangerous than many "learner-level" motorbikes - with no requirement for any training, and then worse still, hand it to young kid (who barely has the sense to cross a road, and probably no knowledge of traffic rules) to do as they wish. It is not a recipe for success.

[jasonc]

100% agree Andy01

On a side note I started with a 6 cylinder falcon as my first car (3.3. It blew up after a couple of years ago stuck a bigger one in)