the Crazy eDevice rider thread

[warthog1]

I didn't expect you'd be calling out others for behaviour you are doing yourself Jason. Apologies Luke.

[Lukeyboy]

[Mr Purple]

E-scooter highlight of today’s ride was the meth head who almost managed to take me out while I was riding walking pace behind a pedestrian on the far left of the 10km/hr casino works zone on the Bicentennial.

He was going 40+ the other way on the wrong side around a blind corner and called me a f-head when I waved ‘slow down’ at him.

There was actually a police car parked a little further along he must have come past. I half suspect he was taking out some frustration after a hefty fine.

[am50em]

short:The number of reported e-scooter presentations at Queensland's emergency departments increased from 691 in 2021 to 1,273 in 2023.
Since late 2018, fractures have been the most common e-scooter injury at emergency departments, followed by open wounds, then sprains or strains.

What's next?The state government is working on the introduction of random breath testing for riders and is exploring whether bigger e-scooters are safer to use than smaller devices.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-15/ ... /104090966

[Mr Purple]

I like how the articles comments that private scooter riders wear helmets as often as cyclists and I agree.

What it doesn’t point out is that this is because they like to do 80km/hr. But anyway!

[jasonc]

seems relevant

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/ ... packs-5501

[uart]

short:The number of reported e-scooter presentations at Queensland's emergency departments increased from 691 in 2021 to 1,273 in 2023.
Since late 2018, fractures have been the most common e-scooter injury at emergency departments, followed by open wounds, then sprains or strains.

What's next?The state government is working on the introduction of random breath testing for riders and is exploring whether bigger e-scooters are safer to use than smaller devices.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-15/ ... /104090966

I could see drunken riding perhaps being an issue with a small number of riders taking a hire scooter late at night for example, but I suspect that the majority of injuries on private scooters are not alcohol related anyway. More related to the speed ridden and the relative lack of stability of a small wheeled scooter.

As for bigger scooters to improve safety. Yes by all means, just call them electric motor scooters and let them follow the same laws as any other small motor scooter / motor bike. In particular, not ridden on footpaths or cycleways.

"What we're seeing through those injury stats is that lots of the crashes are really small front wheels in particular hitting a little bump and crack and the rider goes straight over the handlebars."

Well no shi_ Sherlock was my first reaction when reading that. Just introduce appropriate speed limits for these devices then (on the devices themselves, not optional by the end user). Then they are safe to share footpaths and cycleways, and the larger unlimited ones can be forced to comply with motor scooter safety standards, licensed and registered and operated on the road the same as any other motorbike.

[uart]

seems relevant
https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/ ... packs-5501

It's astounding just how over-represented PMDs seem to be in relation to Li-Ion battery fires. It's not like they're the only things to out there that use Li-Ion batteries. Even if we discount digital devices due to their relatively small capacity, we still have massive numbers of Li-Ion tools in the home/workshop and garden equipment space.

I've personal got a butt load of 'em. From garden equipment, vacuums, drills, impact, grinder, circ-saw. I've probably got a dozen or so batteries here for all that stuff, and I suspect most people here have at least one of the above listed and a battery or two at minimum. But where are all the fires caused by these devices, dispute their extremely wide usage. Almost every fire seems to be a PMD!

[Mr Purple]

I've personal got a butt load of 'em. From garden equipment, vacuums, drills, impact, grinder, circ-saw. I've probably got a dozen or so batteries here for all that stuff, and I suspect most people here have at least one of the above listed and a battery or two at minimum. But where are all the fires caused by these devices, dispute their extremely wide usage. Almost every fire seems to be a PMD!

Interesting, isn't it?

I suspect it's a question of capacity, exposure to heat and vibration and lack of quality control - both in chargers and the batteries themselves.

There seems to be very little safety regulation where it comes to e-scooters in general, unlike (I presume) battery powered tools which presumably have some sort of standard.

Also unusual in that you'd think exactly the same factors apply to electric vehicle batteries, but they're a whole other level in terms of capacity and very rarely go 'boom'. Once again I suspect this is because there are actual standards and quality control applied to their construction and charging systems.

[uart]

I suspect it's a question of capacity, exposure to heat and vibration and lack of quality control - both in chargers and the batteries themselves.

Yes there must be a number of factors, but capacity shouldn't really effect the chances of a fire, only the magnitude/intensity of it. And capacity of the larger power tool batteries is not that much less than PMDs these days. An 8AH 18V power tool battery has close to a half of the capacity of many ebike batteries, and battery lawnmowers are generally very similar capacity to that of e-bikes.

Something that might be the reason for the discrepancy is the chargers though. Well not necessarily the charging circuitry itself, but simply the way that the battery is physically connected to it.

Most power tools use a charging station that the tool's battery slots into. These generally have tool specific key-ways and pin spacings that make it impossible to plug in the wrong battery.


Many ebike batteries on the other hand use a simple and ubiquitous barrel connector, making it super easy to plug the wrong charger into the wrong battery if you have multiple devices.

[Andy01]

I think there are a few things at play when comparing escooter batteries to power tool batteries.

Most scooter batteries are much bigger (not just double the size). Most "intermediate" (commuter) scooters have batteries of 650-1000 Wh, whereas a 18V x 8Ah tool battery is only 144Wh.

I have a 60V battery lawn mower which has 6Ah batteries, so even they are "only" 360Wh, and they have a similar custom charger to the power tools.

Many tool batteries are (or used to be anyway) LiFe, not Li-Ion or LiPo, which is a less volatile battery chemistry.

As mentioned, as biggest issue is the prevalence of cheap or incorrect chargers for scooters (or bikes). The chargers seem to be more like the old cheap "wall-wart" type chargers found with the cheaper NiCd power tools of 20-25 years ago (with a similar connector to that shown above).

[uart]

Most scooter batteries are much bigger (not just double the size). Most "intermediate" (commuter) scooters have batteries of 650-1000 Wh, whereas a 18V x 8Ah tool battery is only 144Wh.

I have a 60V battery lawn mower which has 6Ah batteries, so even they are "only" 360Wh, and they have a similar custom charger to the power tools.

My wife's E-bike is 36V 10AH (which is optimistically 360 WH) and it suits her just fine. She can easily go 80 km+ on a single charge, as she does also put in a fair bit via the pedals. A lot of the more light-weight roadie orientated e-bikes also use relatively low capacity batteries to save weight and because they're designed to be ridden efficiently. I do take your point that people on overpowered electric BSO conversions and electric motorbikes/motorscooters will generally want much bigger batteries however.

Many tool batteries are (or used to be anyway) LiFe, not Li-Ion or LiPo, which is a less volatile battery chemistry.

I don't think so. LiFe (LiFePO4) has nominal voltage of only 3.2 volts, and even at 100% charge and no load is only 3.6 volts. The cells in every lithium power tool I own (or have ever owned) are 3.6 volt nominal (18V for 5 cells) and around 4.15 volts per cell fully charged (giving a voltage of about 20.8 volts fully charged for an 18V nominal pack). This volts per cell is identical to that of every ebike battery that I've ever tested (and I do test this stuff regularly to make sure that the chargers are providing the correct voltage and cutting out at a safe voltage per cell value).

[Andy01]

Many tool batteries are (or used to be anyway) LiFe, not Li-Ion or LiPo, which is a less volatile battery chemistry.

I don't think so. LiFe (LiFePO4) has nominal voltage of only 3.2 volts, and even at 100% charge and no load is only 3.6 volts. The cells in every lithium power tool I own (or have ever owned) are 3.6 volt nominal (18V for 5 cells) and around 4.15 volts per cell fully charged (giving a voltage of about 20.8 volts fully charged for an 18V nominal pack). This volts per cell is identical to that of every ebike battery that I've ever tested (and I do test this stuff regularly to make sure that the chargers are providing the correct voltage and cutting out at a safe voltage per cell value).

The DeWalt for one used to be LiFe - I know that because RC helicopter owners sought the batteries out because they were lower voltage, and a 2-cell battery could be used as the flight electronics battery because it could be used on normal 6V servos without over-powering them like a 2s LiPo.

That was a few years ago now, so maybe the tools are using standard Li-Ion cells now. I thought I read that at least some of the larger escooters were using LiPo batteries for the higher power & higher discharge rates (C rating) - maybe not ?

[Mr Purple]

Some big dude lazily turning over the pedals on an electric mountainbike this morning flew past me on Sylvan Road and then provided a leadout on the Bicentennial Bikeway westbound.

Thanks for providing me a PB for that 4km at 42km/hr there matey. Though I suspect your device may be a little illegal.

To be honest despite that he was a reasonably safe rider. Sensible passing, no throttle, rear flashing light, consistent speed, no sudden stops. Probably the whole '17km/hr faster than the e-device limit' was the only issue.

[elantra]

These things (illegal e-devices) are officially now in plague proportions in Kingscliff NSW.

It’s a revelation to be on the roads or bike paths here just before or after the start of school

In the space of about 5 minutes this morning I saw 4 “illegal” e-motorbikes being used by high school students on the way to school. In their school uniforms.

Sure it’s not the end of the world but there does need to be a regulated implementation of this fairly radical social evolution.
Preferably before too many people get injured.

The last student that I saw this morning must have been running late. He was doing about 50 km/hr going slightly uphill on a small suburban street.
Not pedalling at all of course.
To his credit he was wearing helmet AND he was on the road, rather than blasting along the adjacent shared bicycle / runner/ pedestrian / stroller/ dog etc. pathway. Kudos.

What bugs me the most is that the “authorities” - namely Police and Education department are so totally out of their depth on this issue.

It’s illegal of course.
Australian bureaucracies seem to be getting more out of touch, dithery and bogged down in their makeup rooms with each year that goes by.

It’s a slippery slope for parents, teachers, police etc to be implicitly endorsing this lack of respect for the law.
What other laws will these kids decide to ignore?

I guess that either the law has to be enforced or the illegal activity made legal.
Or a bit of both.

[uart]

It’s a revelation to be on the roads or bike paths here just before or after the start of school
In the space of about 5 minutes this morning I saw 4 “illegal” e-motorbikes being used by high school students on the way to school. In their school uniforms.

Are they mostly the "fat bike" type elantra. Those seem to be absolutely loved by school kids (like a real status symbol) and they're fast getting to plague proportions with that age group in many places.

[elantra]

It’s a revelation to be on the roads or bike paths here just before or after the start of school
In the space of about 5 minutes this morning I saw 4 “illegal” e-motorbikes being used by high school students on the way to school. In their school uniforms.

Are they mostly the "fat bike" type elantra. Those seem to be absolutely loved by school kids (like a real status symbol) and they're fast getting to plague proportions with that age group in many places.

Yes, same or similar to that one.
A year ago they were not seen around the High School here (Kingscliff, NSW)
Now they appear to be de rigueur for the fashion-conscious High School student with parents who have too much money and too little moral fibre.

And of course they get used inappropriately.
I would guess not all the time, but a lot of the time they are being used recklessly - (speeding on roads or footpaths, buzzing pedestrians, sometimes riding without lights or helmets etc etc etc)
And of course most of them are illegal motorbikes (power, weight, lack of pedal input etc)

[Mr Purple]

Just saw someone's ridden the BVRT E2E (161km) in the e-bike category at 5:28. So 29km/hr+.

Be interesting to see if there's any blowback on that one, because they're meant to be road legal and 25km/hr limited.

I'm sure the 'blah blah blah it's entirely legal' will no doubt be trotted out. As if it's possible to do 161km/1300m at close to 30km/hr on your own steam only on a 12kg minimum bike without electrical assistance.

Full kudos to the naturally aspirated rider who's done 5:04. That's epic! I'm annoyed I missed it now, I reckon 5:30 was do-able (I could have drafted the e-bike dude).

[elantra]

Just saw someone's ridden the BVRT E2E (161km) in the e-bike category at 5:28. So 29km/hr+.

Be interesting to see if there's any blowback on that one, because they're meant to be road legal and 25km/hr limited.

I'm sure the 'blah blah blah it's entirely legal' will no doubt be trotted out. As if it's possible to do 161km/1300m at close to 30km/hr on your own steam only on a 12kg minimum bike without electrical assistance.

Full kudos to the naturally aspirated rider who's done 5:04. That's epic! I'm annoyed I missed it now, I reckon 5:30 was do-able (I could have drafted the e-bike dude).

I discovered this morning that fat-tyre e-motorcycles are a darn good sit-behind for motor pacing !
on GCCV (Gold Coast Currumbin Valley)

Their ergonomics contribute to this - the rider sits bolt- upright.
And the fact that he was carrying a surfboard also helped.

[Mr Purple]

Yep. I ended up 5th overall this year (of 5290) chasing that big guy on a e-bike yesterday on the Bicentennial.

They care not for aero so make the perfect wind block!

[warthog1]

Yep. I ended up 5th overall this year (of 5290) chasing that big guy on a e-bike yesterday on the Bicentennial.

They care not for aero so make the perfect wind block!

[WyvernRH]

Just saw someone's ridden the BVRT E2E (161km) in the e-bike category at 5:28. So 29km/hr+.

Be interesting to see if there's any blowback on that one, because they're meant to be road legal and 25km/hr limited.

I'm sure the 'blah blah blah it's entirely legal' will no doubt be trotted out. As if it's possible to do 161km/1300m at close to 30km/hr on your own steam only on a 12kg minimum bike without electrical assistance.
<snip>

OK 161km is a long way to keep up the speed but... An old bloke like me can do my 28km training loop over 'undulating' terrain in under the hour if I put my mind to it on my Cannondale Topstone Lefty e-Gravel. You are not restricted to 25km you know, you can pedal faster on the flats and come down hills at whatever speed you can manage. So, if you can get up the hills at a decent speed (thanks to the assistance) you can crank out some pretty decent averages. I'd be doing 30-35kph on the flattish stuff, 40-60kph downhill, maybe 18-20kph uphill and somewhere in the 20-30kph range on the rolling stuff. All on 'Eco', the base setting if you are wondering.
Not slowing down so much on the hills helps the average a lot and you can always jack it up to 'Tour' or 'Sport' if you so desire to get you to the top faster!
I wouldn't like to try it on my wife's e-MTB which weighs a ton but do-able if I try on the e-Gravel. A younger/fitter person on an e-road bike could probably do better.

Richard

PS the Lefty is most definitely legal - assistance cuts out at circa 25kph whatever setting you are in.

[Mr Purple]

28km yes, but 161km?

If you were planning on doing that distance at 29km/hr I’d suspect it would actually be easier unassisted.

Looking at the splits for this rider one of them is 39.22km/hr. That's 2.5km/hr faster than the event winner and KOM holder for that distance. I suspect there was less supervision for that segment.

Just seems a bit pointless to show up to an event on a motorbike.

[WyvernRH]

28km yes, but 161km?

If you were planning on doing that distance at 29km/hr I’d suspect it would actually be easier unassisted.
Looking at the splits for this rider one of them is 39.22km/hr. That's 2.5km/hr faster than the event winner and KOM holder for that distance. I suspect there was less supervision for that segment.
Just seems a bit pointless to show up to an event on a motorbike.

Yes, not disagreeing with you at all there. You would have to be very fit and using a good e-road bike to do it legally, in which case if you are that fit, why bother except to make a point?
Actually, the 161km range would be the killer for a lightweight e-road bike. They would need to have an assistant waiting with a spare battery somewhere around 2/3 the way around, if not sooner

Thinking about it, 11-12kg (24-25lbs?) was a respectable weight for a road bike back when I was a lad, so the e-roads are not that heavy except when compared to todays lightweights.

Richard

[Mr Purple]

I’m a little intrigued to what it actually was. I suspect some high powered, heavy, fat tyred thing just to have enough room for the batteries to make it that distance at that speed.

Speaking of which some genius just took a bunch of my KOMs around Mt Gravatt. 48km/hr up a 6% climb on a bikeway with an hour spent at over 1000W.

One of those ‘flag it or notify the police’ ones! Also went up a couple of bush trails most definitely marked ‘no cycling’.

Same dude did a Cootha Front last week (2.2km/6.3% with an official KOM of 4:49) in 2:25/54km/hr. If physics don't catch up with him first the police are going to want a word at some stage.