On the risks of oversized (and jacked up) vehicles.

[Thoglette]

Article in the conversation nicely summarising the risk of this class of vehicle. With numbers.
Big cars might make you feel safer. But here’s how vehicle size impacts others in a crash

Thank that “lift kit” is harmless? Think again:

. A mere 10 centimetre increase in front-end height can elevate the risk of pedestrian death by 22%,

And that’s ignoring the increased likelihood of a collision because of the poorer vision that results.

[WyvernRH]

Thank that “lift kit” is harmless? Think again:

. A mere 10 centimetre increase in front-end height can elevate the risk of pedestrian death by 22%,

And that’s ignoring the increased likelihood of a collision because of the poorer vision that results.

Not to mention the decrease in quality of on-road handling of the vehicle. More top-hamper and longer suspension travel....
Skilled driver - no problem but ...

Richard

[am50em]

And that’s ignoring the increased likelihood of a collision because of the poorer vision that results.

Evidence for this? I don't think there is much difference in vision during typical driving on suburban streets. During low speed in driveways yes but cameras would mitigate this as the article states.

[fat and old]

Thank that “lift kit” is harmless? Think again:

. A mere 10 centimetre increase in front-end height can elevate the risk of pedestrian death by 22%,

And that’s ignoring the increased likelihood of a collision because of the poorer vision that results.

Not to mention the decrease in quality of on-road handling of the vehicle. More top-hamper and longer suspension travel....
Skilled driver - no problem but ...

Richard

Not sure what you’re referring to re the suspension travel comment, but my initial thoughts were “a 10mm (4”) lift isn’t the norm with 4wd’s….more like 50mm + 25mm of tyre increase. Another exaggeration. Reading it carefully shows that the 100mm was only referring to the height of the vehicle as standard. Fair enough. However this paragraph

Impact on collisions

A study from the Netherlands found a significant increase in fatality risk with heavier vehicles.

This has also been seen in the United States, where a study found a 500 kilogram increase in vehicle weight, which could mean the difference between an SUV and a sedan, correlated with a 70% higher fatality risk.

Shows a bias that cannot be ignored. That 500kg difference can also the difference between an icu and electric vehicle. Something that is rarely raised in discussions. It’s almost as if ev’s are a protected species. Someone commented elsewhere that speeding fines should be based on momentum, unless physics have changed since I went to school mass has a pretty significant input on momentum.

[am50em]

For every passenger car sold in Australia, almost three SUVs are sold.

Given this collisions between cars and SUVs are becoming rarer. What are collision effects between SUVs? Also SUVs span from Suzuki Ignis to Ford 150 style trucks, the whole SUV comparison to sedans is flawed. Specifying actual vehicles e.g. Hilux or Tundra against Camary or Ignis vs Camary would yield very different results. I presume when people say SUV they are only thinking about large SUVs or trucks. I know this topic is about oversized but the article linked to, just says SUVs with no distinction in size in framing its arguments.

I am not a fan of the growing size of vehicles on the road for a number of reasons.

I believe that 99% of the collision/injury/fatalities problem is woeful driving skills. I don't want to get hit by any vehicle.

[Mr Purple]

Shows a bias that cannot be ignored. That 500kg difference can also the difference between an icu and electric vehicle. Something that is rarely raised in discussions. It’s almost as if ev’s are a protected species. Someone commented elsewhere that speeding fines should be based on momentum, unless physics have changed since I went to school mass has a pretty significant input on momentum.

That's my theory with regards to momentum. Speeding fines to be levied on vehicle mass as well as speed given momentum is responsible for the damage done!

I don't disagree with your statement on EVs. The additional mass poses an additional safety risk perhaps mitigated by the fact they're generally a lot safer for their occupants by virtue of being newer, as well as representing a reduced fire danger (despite what the Facebook commentators may say).

Where we're going to be in real trouble is when the SUV/truck EVs arrive. Many of the newer full scale American EV offerings are getting close to 5 tonnes. Given they simultaneously have huge amounts of power and torque they also accelerate very quickly. That's a lot of momentum...

I've never understood why people feel SUVs are safer. I've driven plenty and always feel like I'm driving a couch propped up a meter in the air. Probably too many years driving small cars!

[warthog1]

For every passenger car sold in Australia, almost three SUVs are sold.

Given this collisions between cars and SUVs are becoming rarer. What are collision effects between SUVs? Also SUVs span from Suzuki Ignis to Ford 150 style trucks, the whole SUV comparison to sedans is flawed. Specifying actual vehicles e.g. Hilux or Tundra against Camary or Ignis vs Camary would yield very different results. I presume when people say SUV they are only thinking about large SUVs or trucks. I know this topic is about oversized but the article linked to, just says SUVs with no distinction in size in framing its arguments.

I am not a fan of the growing size of vehicles on the road for a number of reasons.

I believe that 99% of the collision/injury/fatalities problem is woeful driving skills. I don't want to get hit by any vehicle.

Part of those woeful skills include device distraction. I don't see it being policed or addressed significantly. I do not see it decreasing in the near future at least. Yes bigger vehicles carrying more height and momentum driven by people not even watching where they are going is not a good thing.
We do each case job about at work. So every second case I am driving. Every case involving transport means travel on 100kmh roads. Almost every single time I see somebody coming toward us glancing at their lap intermittently. Some pass whilst still looking at their lap.

[WyvernRH]

<snip>^
Shows a bias that cannot be ignored. That 500kg difference can also the difference between an icu and electric vehicle. Something that is rarely raised in discussions. It’s almost as if ev’s are a protected species. Someone commented elsewhere that speeding fines should be based on momentum, unless physics have changed since I went to school mass has a pretty significant input on momentum.

A valid point on EV weight.

Dunno about cars specifically but having done some work on projectile impact in the past you have to think that a Tesla arriving at 70 kph has got to do a lot more damage to the target than the equivalent petrol vehicle of the same size/carrying capacity which would have significantly less mass.
Maybe the anti-collision/proximity braking software would help with this?

However, same logic still means that a petrol RAM ute<sic> hitting you with one guy in it is gonna do more damage than some sort of lightweight KIA with one guy in it.

Also, EV RAM utes are coming I'm told?

Richard

[brumby33]

Even though the Glorified Hatchbacks (SUVs) are sitting a lot higher, the interior isn't much greater in some of them as my little Corolla. They are still cars.....they only have a floor pan sub chassis unlike a 4x4 ute or even a 2x4 ute which have a full length box frame style chassis to give them some load carrying capacity. but the 4x4;s like Hilux and all the other 4x4 Utes and wagon 4x4's all have a heavy duty chassis compared to a standard SUV so therefore any accident is going to be catastrophic for an SUV if it's T-boned by a Hilux for example and even worse if hit by a Ram.
One of the biggest issues with the jacked up 4x4's that enthusiasts drive for their offroad prowess, they have the highest risk of being thrown on their side due to their higher COG and their less astute handling abilities.
I've seen high jacked up 4x4's flip on their lid very easily if they've had to swerve to avoid hitting something. Yeah they might be great in the bush when they are negotiating huge ruts with their long travel suspension at 0.3kph but swerving at even 60kph could see them upside down in the wrong circumstances where a standard car or hatch may be more prone to slide.

[fat and old]

Also, EV RAM utes are coming I'm told?

Richard

Worse. The F150 is, the Tesla cybertruck, next year I think BYD has a full electric dual cab in Australian size as well.

[foo on patrol]

For every passenger car sold in Australia, almost three SUVs are sold.

Given this collisions between cars and SUVs are becoming rarer. What are collision effects between SUVs? Also SUVs span from Suzuki Ignis to Ford 150 style trucks, the whole SUV comparison to sedans is flawed. Specifying actual vehicles e.g. Hilux or Tundra against Camary or Ignis vs Camary would yield very different results. I presume when people say SUV they are only thinking about large SUVs or trucks. I know this topic is about oversized but the article linked to, just says SUVs with no distinction in size in framing its arguments.

I am not a fan of the growing size of vehicles on the road for a number of reasons.

I believe that 99% of the collision/injury/fatalities problem is woeful driving skills. I don't want to get hit by any vehicle.

Part of those woeful skills include device distraction. I don't see it being policed or addressed significantly. I do not see it decreasing in the near future at least. Yes bigger vehicles carrying more height and momentum driven by people not even watching where they are going is not a good thing.
We do each case job about at work. So every second case I am driving. Every case involving transport means travel on 100kmh roads. Almost every single time I see somebody coming toward us glancing at their lap intermittently. Some pass whilst still looking at their lap.

This is a huge problem in new vehicles with all of the so called safety chit in them. You have buzzers, screens and other bloody noisy things screaming at you whilst your driving along, plus some with lane change crap that tries to take over from you, no friggin wonder there is some much distraction when driving and that without even bringing a phone into the equation! I drove a vehicle with all of this safety crap on it and the first pothole that I had to avoid the bloody lane change crap tried to take over and fire me back into the huge pothole and then there's the dips in the road that active the braking sensors.

I hate small cars, you sit to low to the ground and visibility is crap in heavy traffic and they are a death trap out on country roads with livestock of all shapes and sizes, narrow roads with high edges that turn the things into a riccocheting lump of plastic when trying to getback up to the asphalt or damage the undercarriage and tyres from potholes and they have enough of that proplem when in surburbia.

If the vehicles lay within the legal guide lines of being legally roadworthy, what the hell is wrong with that, especially when you look at 4X4 Utes that are used as work vehicles through the week and then a play vehichle for the weekend that is setup properly for towing on and off road? If people at that concerned about things, stay off the road, sell you matchbox cars and use public transport for everything = going to work, shopping, going on holidays, going to visit people taking kids to school and see how your life works out. The bloody human race is being so dumbed down because of idiotic "what if" thinking and the indroduction of sensors that control everything in vehicles and it's made people not think for themselves.



Foo

[fat and old]

Sideshow Raheem!!!!

Not that I don't disagree with most of what you say.

[foo on patrol]

Sideshow Raheem!!!!

Not that I don't disagree with most of what you say.

I was crossing a single lane bridge with the fog line painted on either side and the lane control wanted to throw me from side to side whilst crossing it. Can you imagine a learner driver in that situation and that starts happening, yeah that's a safety feature that I want.

Foo

[g-boaf]

4X4 Utes that are used as work vehicles through the week and then a play vehichle for the weekend

And how many are really work vehicles through the week? Around my area I see stuff all of them through the week doing any work related stuff, not carrying tools, nothing. They don't even go off-road, look at them without a single scratch, chassis spotlessly clean. They are on-road only.

I can understand 4x4 Iveco utes, those are real work vehicles, also the VW cab-chassis with a tray on the back (back in 2021 around $65K) or some of the Japanese alternatives. But those get no cred on the weekend. The others are BS fashion accessories.

Worth noting the last tradies that I had doing work here did not have 4x4 play-thing utes, they were all just with regular 2WD utes with normal trays on the back. No big chunky tyres, not lifted, no look at me "whistle" mods. They were just basic vehicles to get the job done which I agree with.

[foo on patrol]

4X4 Utes that are used as work vehicles through the week and then a play vehichle for the weekend

And how many are really work vehicles through the week? Around my area I see stuff all of them through the week doing any work related stuff, not carrying tools, nothing. They don't even go off-road, look at them without a single scratch, chassis spotlessly clean. They are on-road only.

I can understand 4x4 Iveco utes, those are real work vehicles, also the VW cab-chassis with a tray on the back (back in 2021 around $65K) or some of the Japanese alternatives. But those get no cred on the weekend. The others are BS fashion accessories.

Worth noting the last tradies that I had doing work here did not have 4x4 play-thing utes, they were all just with regular 2WD utes with normal trays on the back. No big chunky tyres, not lifted, no look at me "whistle" mods. They were just basic vehicles to get the job done which I agree with.

Well you live in a strange area because it's the opposite in the areas that"ve lived. The only ones that I've seen with 2wd are garden maintanence blokes. Some blokes are also OCD with washing them and drive around after weekend of wheeling with them looking spotless. You also don't need to have scratches all of the side of them when having driven offroad, especially if tracks are well used, so that negates that argument about not using them if they don't have pinstrips and besides that, a quick cut n polish will have the paint work looking good again.

Foo

[warthog1]

This is a huge problem in new vehicles with all of the so called safety chit in them. You have buzzers, screens and other bloody noisy things screaming at you whilst your driving along, plus some with lane change crap that tries to take over from you, no friggin wonder there is some much distraction when driving and that without even bringing a phone into the equation! I drove a vehicle with all of this safety crap on it and the first pothole that I had to avoid the bloody lane change crap tried to take over and fire me back into the huge pothole and then there's the dips in the road that active the braking sensors.

I hate small cars, you sit to low to the ground and visibility is crap in heavy traffic and they are a death trap out on country roads with livestock of all shapes and sizes, narrow roads with high edges that turn the things into a riccocheting lump of plastic when trying to getback up to the asphalt or damage the undercarriage and tyres from potholes and they have enough of that proplem when in surburbia.

If the vehicles lay within the legal guide lines of being legally roadworthy, what the hell is wrong with that, especially when you look at 4X4 Utes that are used as work vehicles through the week and then a play vehichle for the weekend that is setup properly for towing on and off road? If people at that concerned about things, stay off the road, sell you matchbox cars and use public transport for everything = going to work, shopping, going on holidays, going to visit people taking kids to school and see how your life works out. The bloody human race is being so dumbed down because of idiotic "what if" thinking and the indroduction of sensors that control everything in vehicles and it's made people not think for themselves.



Foo

I like my little Barbie car, the Swift. Prefer to drive it on road compared to the Patrol tbh. Doesn't have any safety nonsense on it. Does have airbags however. It can't do what the Patrol can, like haul a family of four across the Simpson desert or around Fraser island for instance. Yes good point about wildlife on country roads. Hit a decent sized kangaroo and a fair chance of it coming through the windscreen at you. Much prefer the Patrol on country nights at night.
You would know a thing or two about driver behaviour and country roads after several million ks driving multicombination trucks I bet you are glad that is behind you!

[g-boaf]

Well you live in a strange area

Foo

Nothing strange, just an outer-suburban Howard's battlers area where people run around in highly polished and perfectly kept 4x4s and premium $100K+ SUVs.

They all look like they've just come from a motorshow display stand.

You see the stupidity of the bigger and bigger vehicles in the shopping centre car parks. I suppose they will have to make parking spots bigger and reduce the amount of spots to accommodate RAM 1500 TRX and other similar size vehicles at 6 metres long and 2.2 metres wide.

That's fine though, let them make parking spots bigger and reduce the number of spots, then these same people will be outraged when they cannot find a parking spot anymore.

[jules21]

Nothing strange, just an outer-suburban Howard's battlers area where people run around in highly polished and perfectly kept 4x4s and premium $100K+ SUVs.

I live in suburbia in Brisbane. These vehicles are utterly endemic. Everyone seems to have one. Abbott (?) or Morrison gave them a 100% tax write off and they all went out and spent up on them. While they got a big discount, it's odd living in a working class suburb where houses are often pretty modest, but they have a shiny $80k new fully optioned ute in the driveway. At some point these people will seek to retire and they are going to have quite a lot less money than if they didn't buy a new ute. I wonder who will be paying for them to continue living?

[fat and old]

I think something needs to be cleared up re the fancy utes and big Yank utes.

Tradies do drive them about, but from what I see the big users are contractors. And definitely so with the rams, F150’s, Silverados etc. Every building site I go past has a line of Rangers, Hiluxes, Navaras and less numbers of Colorados and Tritons. All older units. The housing projects are the high end dual cabs and esp. Landcruisers. Those blokes are the contractors. The big units are used by crane and rigging, earthworks, drainage and water, steel fixing and stinking developers. All contractors, all the boss. The developers esp. will not get them dirty. They’re a status symbol to those parasites, same with cranes and steelfixers. The others use them as h/d towing units.

[jules21]

people can buy what they want. but when I see people living in pretty basic houses with an $80k ute parked in the driveway, I just wonder how good they are at financial planning. there's no crime committed here, but the govt has incentivised people to overstretch on these purchases. I often hear people say their fuel bill is a hefty chunk of their weekly budget. I mean, people make their choices. But when it's such a cultural thing, it tells me they aren't making those choices in isolation. It's likely a combination of peer pressure (status of owning a nice ute - even if not a $200k RAM) and tax incentives that provide an up-front cash benefit, but then flow on costs of fuel, insurance and maintenance costs.

I do see some with toolboxes etc. and understand these are tools of the trade. But many more that are not used for carrying tools of trade.

[g-boaf]

Elsewhere people use commercial small trucks which have far more load carrying ability and a lot more practical.

Only they aren't cool and aren't status symbols.

[jules21]

they're also not using them to pootle down to the shops for milk.

which is what the giant utes are used for. there's a guy a few doors down from me, every time I turn my head, he's entering or exiting his driveway with his Ranger. it's a free country etc., but it's quite clear we've created a culture in Australia that for many people revolves around their motor vehicle and using a 2.5t oversize ute for anything and everything.

[Mr Purple]

Nothing strange, just an outer-suburban Howard's battlers area where people run around in highly polished and perfectly kept 4x4s and premium $100K+ SUVs.

I live in suburbia in Brisbane. These vehicles are utterly endemic. Everyone seems to have one. Abbott (?) or Morrison gave them a 100% tax write off and they all went out and spent up on them. While they got a big discount, it's odd living in a working class suburb where houses are often pretty modest, but they have a shiny $80k new fully optioned ute in the driveway. At some point these people will seek to retire and they are going to have quite a lot less money than if they didn't buy a new ute. I wonder who will be paying for them to continue living?

Yeah, that's the real issue isn't it. To be honest the tradies aren't actually that bad, because they need the ute and the contents of the ute for their job. They may not drive that safely (because many of them after all are young teenage knuckleheads like we all were at some stage) but I can understand entirely why they drive what they drive.

However I'm really not sure why every second family needs a 2.5T 7 seat SUV AND a dual cab. Especially when they're deskbound professionals.

Even then I'm happy to say 'whatever, it's your call' but the tax breaks given for these vehicles outside very specific circumstances are just stupid. The general public should not be subsidising people wanting to buy bigger cars. And it's a simple solution, just politically unpopular.

In the end us cyclists will always naturally end up hating SUVs and dual cabs, because most of our near passes are with SUVs and dual cabs. However before that we hated Commodores and Falcons, because most of our near passes were with Commodores and Falcons. This is because whatever cars are more popular at the time will end up being the ones that almost kill us the most.

[jules21]

I think there's more to it than just they are popular models and we experience more close passes.

When I've ridden in European countries like Spain, everyone drives a small Seat or Peugeot. Somehow they get stuff built and carry tools around - I'm unsure how - without a Ford Ranger.

But the key difference is cultural. You don't seem to have owners of Seats getting online and asserting their dominance, the way owners of oversized utes in Australia do. For them, a car is just a tool to travel quietly from A to B. In Australia, an $80k ute is a large part of people's identity, with stickers that say "MAKING MY OWN WAY" and an attitude that anyone else on the road had better get out of their way.

Tony Abbott actually wrote about it in his book. Not that way, but he alluded to it. The motor vehicle for many Australians is an expression of freedom, their personality and social status. This mentality is definitely not helpful to cyclists.

[familyguy]

Weight and height =


Like it's not even there. Pity a lower family car.