Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

warthog1
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:30 am

I cbfed retyping also.
However, should people again make claims helmets provide no protection I will.
Yes mhls do reduce cycling rates which brings its' own problems.
Road cycling carries with it an increased risk of head strike compared to some other forms of cycling.
There is a body of evidence that helmet wearing reduces the risk of brain injury in a head strike.
Whilst road cycling I will wear it regardless of any law.

warthog1 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:38 pm
I do like the claim above about how MHLs don't necessarily lead to a reduction in cycling, yeah, but what little data we have says that, while it may not necessarily lead to lower cycling, in the real world that's just what happened.

Anyway, back to the issue: if helmets clearly provide protection against brain injury when there is a head strike, where is the real world evidence?

Not theoretical studies, real world data.
How do you propose they do not?

Is there anybody likely to volunteer for a brain injury test?

This has already been posted. Perhaps read it.


Cycling is a popular form of recreation and method of commuting with clear health benefits. However, cycling is not without risk. In Canada, cycling injuries are more common than in any other summer sport; and according to the US National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration, 52,000 cyclists were injured in the US in 2010. Head injuries account for approximately two-thirds of hospital admissions and three-quarters of fatal injuries among injured cyclists. In many jurisdictions and across all age levels, helmets have been adopted to mitigate risk of serious head injuries among cyclists and the majority of epidemiological literature suggests that helmets effectively reduce risk of injury. Critics have raised questions over the actual efficacy of helmets by pointing to weaknesses in existing helmet epidemiology including selection bias and lack of appropriate control for the type of impact sustained by the cyclist and the severity of the head impact. These criticisms demonstrate the difficulty in conducting epidemiology studies that will be regarded as definitive and the need for complementary biomechanical studies where confounding factors can be adequately controlled. In the bicycle helmet context, there is a paucity of biomechanical data comparing helmeted to unhelmeted head impacts and, to our knowledge, there is no data of this type available with contemporary helmets. In this research, our objective was to perform biomechanical testing of paired helmeted and unhelmeted head impacts using a validated anthropomorphic test headform and a range of drop heights between 0.5m and 3.0m, while measuring headform acceleration and Head Injury Criterion (HIC). In the 2m (6.3m/s) drops, the middle of our drop height range, the helmet reduced peak accelerations from 824g (unhelmeted) to 181g (helmeted) and HIC was reduced from 9667 (unhelmeted) to 1250 (helmeted). At realistic impact speeds of 5.4m/s (1.5m drop) and 6.3m/s (2.0m drop), bicycle helmets changed the probability of severe brain injury from extremely likely (99.9% risk at both 5.4 and 6.3m/s) to unlikely (9.3% and 30.6% risk at 1.5m and 2.0m drops respectively). These biomechanical results for acceleration and HIC, and the corresponding results for reduced risk of severe brain injury show that contemporary bicycle helmets are highly effective at reducing head injury metrics and the risk for severe brain injury in head impacts characteristic of bicycle crashes.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24686160/

On top of that are you proposing that all of the engineering and science involved in the design and production of bicycle helmets is a complete failure. All of those engineers involved in their design have no clue and the nuerologists advocating their use have no clue.
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BobtheBuilder
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:33 am

warthog1 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:30 am
Yes mhls do reduce cycling rates which brings its' own problems.
Yes, those "problems" include impacts on public health that far outweigh any benefit by compelling the small group of remaining cyclists to wear helmets (who, generally, engage in riskier cycling and hence largely wear helmets anyway).
warthog1 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:30 am
Road cycling carries with it an increased risk of head strike compared to some other forms of cycling.
There is a body of evidence that helmet wearing reduces the risk of brain injury in a head strike.
Whilst road cycling I will wear it regardless of any law.
The same is true of motor vehicle transport, though strangely not even the most rabid MHL advocate advocates wearing a helmet inside a motor vehicle, let alone making it mandatory.

fat and old
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:27 pm

Every time anybody posts an example of what they say is their helmet saving them from a head injury they are told it didn't, and to provide proof. You can't prove the helmet is effective. Nyah nyah nyah. And so on.

Not once have I ever seen a rebuttal where the poster has provided evidence that the helmet DID NOT prevent head injury. Never. Surely if you cannot provide evidence of your claim it's just a random statement void of any real importance let alone fact?

One cancels the other.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:50 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:33 am

warthog1 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:30 am
Road cycling carries with it an increased risk of head strike compared to some other forms of cycling.
There is a body of evidence that helmet wearing reduces the risk of brain injury in a head strike.
Whilst road cycling I will wear it regardless of any law.
The same is true of motor vehicle transport, though strangely not even the most rabid MHL advocate advocates wearing a helmet inside a motor vehicle, let alone making it mandatory.
And back into it again then.
Motorvehicles do however have safety measures included to protect against injury, such as seat belts, seat belt pretensioning, collision avoidance in terms of emergency brake assist and airbags. Airbags are particularly effective in the prevention of injury, including head injury. Direct experience of their efficacy witnessed multiple times in my line of work.
I would not allow my kids to buy a car not equipped with side airbags such is their efficacy.

I am not arguing for MHLs, just countering nonsense that they are ineffective at brain injury prevention.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:57 pm

fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:27 pm
Every time anybody posts an example of what they say is their helmet saving them from a head injury they are told it didn't, and to provide proof. You can't prove the helmet is effective. Nyah nyah nyah. And so on.

Not once have I ever seen a rebuttal where the poster has provided evidence that the helmet DID NOT prevent head injury. Never. Surely if you cannot provide evidence of your claim it's just a random statement void of any real importance let alone fact?

One cancels the other.
Agreed, and good to see you here again F&O :wink: :lol:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:17 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:50 pm
I am not arguing for MHLs, just countering nonsense that they are ineffective at brain injury prevention.
Can we move on from this non-argument? I think it's only rarely that anyone has suggested that they are completely ineffective at brain injury protection. I can't remember an example.
Even arguing about how effective they are has been done to death.

Their effectiveness is not really relevant, given we know MHLs make little to no difference to head injury rates and make a big difference to cycling rates and thereby have a huge public health impact.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:25 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:17 pm
warthog1 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:50 pm
I am not arguing for MHLs, just countering nonsense that they are ineffective at brain injury prevention.
Can we move on from this non-argument? I think it's only rarely that anyone has suggested that they are completely ineffective at brain injury protection. I can't remember an example.
Even arguing about how effective they are has been done to death.

Their effectiveness is not really relevant, given we know MHLs make little to no difference to head injury rates and make a big difference to cycling rates and thereby have a huge public health impact.
If people refrain from claiming or implying they are ineffective then yes.
Otherwise no.
When it is stated or implied that helmets are ineffective at reducing the incidence and severity of brain injury then I will continue to post the evidence that demonstrates they are.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby brumby33 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:33 pm

When you're looking at the likelyhood of having critical injuries during a bicycle accident, you're also having to look at the environment for which you're cycling in. Remote or any City in the NT would be a lot different in riding in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, a lot more cars to hit you, more obstacles perhaps so you can't really compare our bigger cities to the bigger Capitols.
Cops too will either not give a toss, pending on how busy they are, or if they've just been to an accident where a cyclist has been hit.

I live in Albury, a Large regional town on the border of NSW and Victoria and I see lots of people everyday riding bikes around town with no helmet or just a baseball cap and it seems that cops don't bother much as they already have their work cut out for them.

I wear a helmet because I'm used to it, it does make me feel a tad safer plus it keeps me away from the eyes of Constable Plod, it's kind of like if you're going to play cricket, you're gonna need leg pads or needing to wear protective wear when you're working on site in many industries these days, you may not ever need their protection, but then, maybe one day you might.

You've got to ask, what's better, living with a little extra sweat or inconvenience or risking a chance of brain damage that could make you not being able to earn income or have life enjoyment?

I know what I'd choose over the alternative.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:52 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:17 pm


Their effectiveness is not really relevant, given we know MHLs make little to no difference to head injury rates
Approach this statement from a totally neutral POV, after reading the last 354,789,000 posts in this thread. Completely unbiased, without a care one way or another.

The effectiveness (efficacy? Dunno, I’m a bit stupid post strokes lol) of helmets is the lynchpin on which at least 50% of the “anti” arguments hang. Look back and tell me I’m wrong? Similarly the “helmet saved me scone” argument. I’d say that the effectiveness of helmets is extremely relevant here. Lack of data supporting either POV has absolutely no bearing on the subject of relevance I can see?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm

And another thing…….

I’ve had a few times when I’ve fallen off the bike and pocked my head. No biggie, get up, dust off, ride on. I’m sure many have. When the various academics have carried out their studies into the effectiveness of helmets on injuries, how did the gather and incorporate the data from my experiences?

They didn’t!! They have no idea at all of what is happening unless it’s reported somewhere that will retain that data. None.

My question is this. If there’s 200 of these incidents per month, 1,200 per year across Australia where head strikes are unreported does that make any difference to the published figures of either “side”?

The 200 figure I plucked out of the air. Choose another if you’d like

How you going Warty? If there’s one thing guaranteed to get me posting it’s someone being demonised for wearing a helmet. It’s not my or anyone else’s responsibility to protect and increase cycling’s modal share :lol:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:46 pm

It's not those who wear helmets who get demonised, it's those who would like to ride without a helmet who get fined. No-one gets demonised for wearing a helmet, some get criticised for forcing everyone to wear one on pain of a fine.

Nowhere can anyone here point to any support for banning helmets, quite the contrary, those of us who wish to ride without a helmet are the ones being forced to wear a helmet, but we don't want to force our choice on others.

Playing the victim as a helmet advocate is ridiculous, you got your damned law, I am forced to wear the fine avoidance hat, thanks, but stop trying to claim helmet advocates are the victims.

In any case, I can't support a law which actively discourages cycling.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:31 pm

brumby33 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:33 pm
You've got to ask, what's better, living with a little extra sweat or inconvenience or risking a chance of brain damage that could make you not being able to earn income or have life enjoyment?
Billions of people the world over get to make that choice.

We don't.

As a result Australian cycling is made up almost entirely of those people who were going to wear one anyway. That is, recreational riders and commuters with end-of-trip facilities.

The people who weren't (mostly) stopped riding those trips. I know I ride less because of MHLs (a meeting four blocks up in town won't be a trip I make on the bicycle - it'll be bus or taxi)

This is the key to the stupidity of MHLs: cyclists are pretty darn good at selecting when to wear a helmet.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby brumby33 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:21 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:31 pm
brumby33 wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:33 pm
You've got to ask, what's better, living with a little extra sweat or inconvenience or risking a chance of brain damage that could make you not being able to earn income or have life enjoyment?
Billions of people the world over get to make that choice.

We don't.

As a result Australian cycling is made up almost entirely of those people who were going to wear one anyway. That is, recreational riders and commuters with end-of-trip facilities.

The people who weren't (mostly) stopped riding those trips. I know I ride less because of MHLs (a meeting four blocks up in town won't be a trip I make on the bicycle - it'll be bus or taxi)

This is the key to the stupidity of MHLs: cyclists are pretty darn good at selecting when to wear a helmet.
I do agree with you on the fact is we should have a choice whether or not to wear them and nothing should be mandatory. I'd love to go helmetless sometimes, but at a risk of being hit with a $319 fine, which is lower than someone going through a stop sign, I've just gotten used to it over the years but a helmet isn't something that stops me from riding.....my damned laziness is!!
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:23 pm

Damn. When will I learn?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:20 pm

fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm



How you going Warty? If there’s one thing guaranteed to get me posting it’s someone being demonised for wearing a helmet. It’s not my or anyone else’s responsibility to protect and increase cycling’s modal share :lol:
Good thanks mate :) . Just commenced LSL at half pay.
The more time I spend away from work will increase the duration I stick at it.
I have no other strings to my bow, so I prob should do that.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:55 pm

fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm
It’s not my or anyone else’s responsibility to protect and increase cycling’s modal share :lol:
Maybe it's not yours. But there's a raft of people whose raison d'être is increasing cycling’s modal share.

Apparently, it's good for us.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:20 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:55 pm
fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm
It’s not my or anyone else’s responsibility to protect and increase cycling’s modal share :lol:
Maybe it's not yours. But there's a raft of people whose raison d'être is increasing cycling’s modal share.

Apparently, it's good for us.
Dead set? :lol:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby MichaelB » Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:21 pm

fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:23 pm
Damn. When will I learn?
It’s taken me a few goes too …

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:13 am

fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm
If there’s one thing guaranteed to get me posting it’s someone being demonised for wearing a helmet.
I guess I must have missed that, can you please post a link/quote of the the offending post.

I certainly don't agree with demonising anyone for wanting to wear a helmet. I personally want to wear my helmet about 80 to 90 percent of rides.
Last edited by uart on Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:54 pm

uart wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:13 am
fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm
If there’s one thing guaranteed to get me posting it’s someone being demonised for wearing a helmet.
I guess I must have missed that, can you please post a link/quote of the the offending post.

I certain don't agree with demonising anyone for wanting to wear a helmet. I personally want to wear my helmet about 80 to 90 percent of rides.
I'd be surprised to fine one, let alone many, in all the years of prolific posts on this thread.

Another strawman argument to distract from discussing the actual issues.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:51 pm

BobtheBuilder wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:54 pm
uart wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:13 am
fat and old wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:14 pm
If there’s one thing guaranteed to get me posting it’s someone being demonised for wearing a helmet.
I guess I must have missed that, can you please post a link/quote of the the offending post.

I certain don't agree with demonising anyone for wanting to wear a helmet. I personally want to wear my helmet about 80 to 90 percent of rides.
I'd be surprised to fine one, let alone many, in all the years of prolific posts on this thread.

Come on Bob, people have been throwing the insults back and forward here for years. It's the nature of the thread. The level of rhetoric goes up and down, but it's there.
Another strawman argument to distract from discussing the actual issues.
It would be if I was arguing for or against MHL's. I'm not. Rarely am, and you know it. Strawman don't apply here.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:23 pm

Yep, so no examples of people being demonised for wearing a helmet. Thought so.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:39 pm

DavidS wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:23 pm
Yep, so no examples of people being demonised for wearing a helmet. Thought so.

DS
You won't see one is my guess.

I guess fat and old is having trouble finding the needle in the haystack.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:05 am

August 2010
Thanks for reading the thread before throwing your original, never-before-heard-or-debated opinion in. It really helps the discussion!

April 11 2011
There are many people on this forum who are very insistent on telling you whats best for yourself. They insist that because they know better, then you shouldn't be given a choice. They fail to realise their arrogance.

April 2011
you haven't been following this thread very well have you now? at least try reading the last few pages or so? I'm not keen on reiterating.

April 2011
Its not about subscribing to my views its about opening your mind to the FACT that Australians' views on this issue are heavily influences by the status quo laws. To deny that would be plain ignorant in the face of world wide evidence otherwise. If you can't admit that then you are kidding yourself.

April 2011
Your type makes me puke!!!

April 2011
God help me if your attitude is PRECISELY why liberty is important... because I don't want a selfrighteous twitburger telling me what I am, and am not, capable of working out for myself. I have decades of testing by external sources demonstrating that I am smarter than 95% of the population.

Moderator 2011
Alright you lot, there's been reports of personal abuse. IMO low level, not enough for a warning but my colleagues may think otherwise. This thread will be watched more closely for a while and more robust action will be taken, most likely starting with locking this thread for a day or two.

Discussion, May 2011
Q. Pretty much. Hands up those who would still wear a lid 90% of the time if the MHL was repealed...

A. I would but then I have a brain and like to use it

Retort: Waiting for evidence...

July 2012
Why do you think that your silliness and having an accident is an argument for wearing helmets? If you find yourself hitting you head regularly there is an issue that isn't rectified with a helmet. I find it absolutely puzzling how people can fall off their bike and hit their head in the manner you describe. Should the worst happen and your bike and you part ways then I surely a normal person uses their limbs to brace their fall.

Discussion, September 2013
Statement: I have no interest in Amsterdam

Reply: Then you have no interest in learning how to promote cycling. Sure be closed minded. Sure keep advocating helmets. But doing so will help prevent the growth of cycling for all.

June 2014
Don't be idiotic simonn

Moderator 2015
Oh dear, some of you....

Not happy, to the point that action beyond slicing the dross has been deferred temporarily.

What happens next depends on whether I have to clean up another mess next time I poke my head in here.

July 2016
Unfortuately your view is not correct. Impractical, misleading, downright stupid... Yep

SuperAdmin 2017

A question for participants: Is your style of participation positive and productive?

I encourage each person to approach the discussion with a sense of understanding - understand that others may have different views and that you probably can't change them. And understand that a positive approach and friendly nature to responding and sharing is far more rewarding.

Let's leave it at that - review your posts before posting.


May 2020
Yeah, but the reality is that cyclist-haters, roadies who wear helmets anyway and doctors who drive to work are the ones who support this silly law.

Lost interest at this point. Plenty of crap going the other way too.
Last edited by fat and old on Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:35 am

:lol:
Any posts on a viable strategy or method to see the law removed?
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