Daughter wants a road bike

[warthog1]

Yeah I understand Warty, you're in Bendigo, are you still seeing this type of behaviour often?

I still think educating kids on bikes will make them better drivers but you can't control others and I agree. It's the ones lately that are driving after being disqualified and young teens stealing cars and doing thrill joy rides that worry me more as they're not right in the head to start with. And the ones who are stoned or drunk....usually these morons are at an age that they should be more mature.

I work in Rochester. We transport to Bendigo and Echuca.
Almost everytime when I am driving I see somebody driving toward me at highway speeds looking at their lap

Riding my bicycle I am finding the minimum distance passing law has made many drivers slow and give me room.
I know they are there though, and can time my incompetent weave, using the varia radar, as they approach.
I do this if there is a car oncoming head on as well.

Some rsoles still buzz past at highway speeds with less than 1m clearance. Not often, but it happens.
I choose my roads with care and know where to position myself on the road. Where to ride and when.
A 15 year old kid simply won't have the wisdom borne of age and experience to know how to ride anywhere near as well to mitigate risk.
Far too dangerous imo for a loved one of mine to be in that position.

[warthog1]

No way in hell would I want my 15 year old daughter placed on our congested roads with the distracted, arrogant, aggressive, incompetent drivers that are frankly so prolific.

I assume you wouldn't let your 15 year old daughter travel in a car either then.

She has her licence now but wasn't allowed to buy a car without side airbags which are potentially life-saving.
She has far more protection in her car than she would on a bicycle.
Not even comparable.
She has been taught to obey the laws, drive with consideration and to stay well away from her mobile when driving.

[Mububban]

Another vote here for second hand, especially as I reckon there'd be several road bikes that a husband bought his wife hoping she'd get into it, but she never did, so it's sat unused and now they just want to move it on. Or a lady bought it herself then lost interest for whatever reason (job, kids etc) and it's gathering dust.
These sort of bikes look 100% brand new, often still with the rubber dangly bits on the tyre from the moulding process!

You could even ask your local bike shop to give you a hand searching for a good looking bike, in exchange for bringing it to them for a safety service and inspection, so they get some money for their efforts and assistance. And of course if anything needs fixing, you'd support them too.

The appeal of a road bike (speaking personally, coming from MTBs previously) is the sensation of speed and efficiency. They are NOT comfortable in comparison, but you put up with that in exchange for the thrill, like a sports car with hard suspension.
If you buy her a 12kg+ beast that feels sluggish and heavy, it could very well be uncomfortable AND slow and might put her right off.

I do however have a 14 year old who regularly (not always) prioritises form over function, as being anything remotely different as a teenager in public schools is a social death sentence. Sometimes I truly miss the relative freedom of being young again, but am quite happy being older and freed from the shackles of such group think and peer pressure etc.

[brumby33]

No way in hell would I want my 15 year old daughter placed on our congested roads with the distracted, arrogant, aggressive, incompetent drivers that are frankly so prolific.

I assume you wouldn't let your 15 year old daughter travel in a car either then.

She has her licence now but wasn't allowed to buy a car without side airbags which are potentially life-saving.
She has far more protection in her car than she would on a bicycle.
Not even comparable.
She has been taught to obey the laws, drive with consideration and to stay well away from her mobile when driving.

Yeah I'm not suggesting that she go out on the roads by herself, I'm more suggesting that Parents/Fathers or even older Brothers go out and let he get used to a bike, riding on the road and learning road craft, not try and tackle the mad world solo, there's plenty of time for that if she wants but I'm sure if the Father is a cyclist as well, he may know some good places for her to give it a go. There are lots of women who take to road racing set up these days.

[robbo mcs]

Sorry mate, thousands of road ks here with multiple near misses, the loss of a cycling neighbour, a school lad from my son's school, a young pro I cycled with.
Over 20 years of dealing with road trauma in my job.
So, so many varied types of stupid idiocy resulting in terrible outcomes.
No way in hell would I want my 15 year old daughter placed on our congested roads with the distracted, arrogant, aggressive, incompetent drivers that are frankly so prolific.
Being a good road citizen on a bicycle on our roads will not protect you from those that are driving a lethal weapon and have no respect.
The consequences don't bear thought.

I don't disagree with some of what you say.

However, it never seems to amaze me how much safer bike riding is now than when I was a 15yo (40 years ago).

No helmets
Barely functional lights, that didn't really work. Daylight lights just to be seen? Forget it
Cars with no crumple zones, so if you did get hit, consequences were much worse for low speed accidents
Bike path? Whats a bike path? Bike lane?
Shoulders on main roads were not a thing
Drivers routinely driving home from the pub completely drunk
Planning a route consisted looking at Gregorys. Now you can plot a safe route via heatmaps on strava, ride with GPS etc, look at google street view, stay mainly on bike paths etc

Sure some things have got worse, distracted drivers in particular, busier roads etc. However, sometimes we tend to forget how bad it really was in our youth, and how dramatically some aspects have improved

BTW, I am a doctor, work in hospitals and trauma, so I'm not blind to the effects of trauma.

Sure riding a bike carries risks, but there are also lots of benefits. Conversely, not being active, and sitting on a lounge for 20 years, overeating, drinking and not doing much is risky as well. Plenty of those are being wheeled through the doors of the emergency room every day.

So on balance, I think we should be encouraging 15yo to get on a bike and be active. Sure, be safe about it, try and stay on bike paths, or quiet roads etc.

[warthog1]

Yeah I'm not suggesting that she go out on the roads by herself, I'm more suggesting that Parents/Fathers or even older Brothers go out and let he get used to a bike, riding on the road and learning road craft, not try and tackle the mad world solo, there's plenty of time for that if she wants but I'm sure if the Father is a cyclist as well, he may know some good places for her to give it a go. There are lots of women who take to road racing set up these days.

Fair enough, that sounds much better.
Yeah, he did say shared paths and very quiet roads earlier on.
I am coming across as a very anticycling cyclist, I am sure.
I just don't trust our appalling driving standards and attitudes in this country.
Some roads are a very dangerous place even for experienced cyclists.

[warthog1]

I don't disagree with some of what you say.

However, it never seems to amaze me how much safer bike riding is now than when I was a 15yo (40 years ago).

No helmets
Barely functional lights, that didn't really work. Daylight lights just to be seen? Forget it
Cars with no crumple zones, so if you did get hit, consequences were much worse for low speed accidents
Bike path? Whats a bike path? Bike lane?
Shoulders on main roads were not a thing
Drivers routinely driving home from the pub completely drunk
Planning a route consisted looking at Gregorys. Now you can plot a safe route via heatmaps on strava, ride with GPS etc, look at google street view, stay mainly on bike paths etc

Sure some things have got worse, distracted drivers in particular, busier roads etc. However, sometimes we tend to forget how bad it really was in our youth, and how dramatically some aspects have improved

BTW, I am a doctor, work in hospitals and trauma, so I'm not blind to the effects of trauma.

Sure riding a bike carries risks, but there are also lots of benefits. Conversely, not being active, and sitting on a lounge for 20 years, overeating, drinking and not doing much is risky as well. Plenty of those are being wheeled through the doors of the emergency room every day.

So on balance, I think we should be encouraging 15yo to get on a bike and be active. Sure, be safe about it, try and stay on bike paths, or quiet roads etc.

You are more intelligent and qualified than I. I am just a paramedic.
I do have direct experience of the effects of stupid, distracted, impatient or incompetent driving however.
We are right there soon after and the level of incompetence is sometimes staggering.

I am 53, sure cars are now better than they were when I was a youth.
They aren't necessarily smaller and there are far more of them than there were and mobile phones are in use by quite a number of drivers.
I don't see roads as safer for cyclists than when I was a youth for that reason. I rode my bike to school with a helmet as I hated public transport even then. Those same roads now carry more cars and aren't wider. Perhaps there is more route choice though, yes. However the roads I travelled in the eastern suburbs of Melb haven't changed that much. Had my kids grown up there too, I wouldn't have let them do what I did. Maybe my parents were more relaxed, but it is so much busier now.

Yes on quiet smaller roads and paths would be better and yes we are a sedentary bunch. Exercise is important.
It just needs to be safe to undertake.
That is why I like gravel, so much less traffic. Not available to everyone nearby though.

Anyway I've rabbited on enough about my point. I don't trust our drivers.
I hope the lass in question enjoys whatever bike she gets and it is away from busy roads.

[brumby33]

Yeah I'm not suggesting that she go out on the roads by herself, I'm more suggesting that Parents/Fathers or even older Brothers go out and let he get used to a bike, riding on the road and learning road craft, not try and tackle the mad world solo, there's plenty of time for that if she wants but I'm sure if the Father is a cyclist as well, he may know some good places for her to give it a go. There are lots of women who take to road racing set up these days.

Fair enough, that sounds much better.
Yeah, he did say shared paths and very quiet roads earlier on.
I am coming across as a very anticycling cyclist, I am sure.
I just don't trust our appalling driving standards and attitudes in this country.
Some roads are a very dangerous place even for experienced cyclists.

Warty, mate in your line of work, I'm not surprised that you're super skeptical when you see what Paramedics see on a daily basis and it's often been said that there's a lot of doubt whether we are the most intelligent species out there when you see some of the situations we humans get ourselves into at times.

[warthog1]

I've done plenty of dumb sh it myself so yes, agreed

[g-boaf]

Yeah I'm not suggesting that she go out on the roads by herself, I'm more suggesting that Parents/Fathers or even older Brothers go out and let he get used to a bike, riding on the road and learning road craft, not try and tackle the mad world solo, there's plenty of time for that if she wants but I'm sure if the Father is a cyclist as well, he may know some good places for her to give it a go. There are lots of women who take to road racing set up these days.

Fair enough, that sounds much better.
Yeah, he did say shared paths and very quiet roads earlier on.
I am coming across as a very anticycling cyclist, I am sure.
I just don't trust our appalling driving standards and attitudes in this country.
Some roads are a very dangerous place even for experienced cyclists.

In my old club, the some of the parents and other older club members would go out with the kids riding on the road - they were very well organised. I did it a few times with a couple of the quicker kids from the club because I happened to be out at the same time going the same way. That was fine until one of them got quick enough I couldn't catch him. His mate I could deal with no problem (he wasn't quite as fast), but that other kid damn fast.

These kids all raced so there were the risks of accidents in racing as well and one of them did have a very bad accident in racing - though ended up recovering. Even in controlled environments things can go wrong.

[trailgumby]

Yeah I understand Warty, you're in Bendigo, are you still seeing this type of behaviour often?

I still think educating kids on bikes will make them better drivers but you can't control others and I agree. It's the ones lately that are driving after being disqualified and young teens stealing cars and doing thrill joy rides that worry me more as they're not right in the head to start with. And the ones who are stoned or drunk....usually these morons are at an age that they should be more mature.

I don't disagree that educating kids on bikes makes them better drivers.

However, this is a brain development issue at a whole-of-population level. There will be individual variation to be sure (bell curve distribution and all that) and it's not limited just to cycling. Some kids will be more sensible, others less so. This is about where the median lies.

There is a reason why insurance companies hurt sub-25yo drivers with much higher premiums, and that is because their actuaries have determined that as a group, under-25yo drivers - especially males - have a demonstrated poorer ability to assess the risk and consequences of their decisions, and this turns up in their claims behaviour, regardless of driving experience, and regardless of whether they are at fault.

They are just more likely to get into scrapes because they tend not to recognise as early when a situation is turning dangerous. The parts of the brain that perform that function don't fully develop until that age, sometimes later.

However, this is not a victim blaming exercise. We know all of the above, it is not new information. People make mistakes and we need to account for that in the way we design and build the built environment so that those mistakes don't have fatal or life-altering consequences. This is the role of government and regulatory authorities, and it's our role to hold their hand to the flame until they feel our pain and do something about fixing our streets.

[Wollemi]

She has been taught to obey the laws, drive with consideration and to stay well away from her mobile when driving.

Really. Doesn't everyone these day get taught and examined on these three qualities nowadays?
But what people say they will do, and what they do... can be two different things.

So much awful and bullying driving habits from red P-platers seen personally in outer Sydney in recent months.

[brumby33]

Yeah I understand Warty, you're in Bendigo, are you still seeing this type of behaviour often?

I still think educating kids on bikes will make them better drivers but you can't control others and I agree. It's the ones lately that are driving after being disqualified and young teens stealing cars and doing thrill joy rides that worry me more as they're not right in the head to start with. And the ones who are stoned or drunk....usually these morons are at an age that they should be more mature.

I don't disagree that educating kids on bikes makes them better drivers.


There is a reason why insurance companies hurt sub-25yo drivers with much higher premiums, and that is because their actuaries have determined that as a group, under-25yo drivers - especially males - have a demonstrated poorer ability to assess the risk and consequences of their decisions, and this turns up in their claims behaviour, regardless of driving experience, and regardless of whether they are at fault.

Yeah boy oh boy, hasn't this been realised recently with that kid killing the 5 other kids in his vehicle near Picton NSW that was only licenced to carry 4 people, and a week later another kid put 4 others in Hospital but luckily as far as I'm aware they all survived and have got certain sectors of Authorities and Communities saying that the age for licenses should be raised to 21 years for boys.
Young people will be young people, they take risks to push the boundaries, I know, I was young once too and did a few stupid things and luckily for me, I never drove powerful cars, most were under 100hp, now even 4 cylinders can reach speeds that were only reserved for GTS Monaro's or Toranas of the 70's.
Can you imagine the discrimination cries over bringing up the age of male Learner Drivers to 21? it's difficult to punish a whole group due to stupidity of a few. You can push driver education down their throats till they're blue in the face, but will they ever listen?
I don' think those kids are bad kids, just misguided, they do it for the thrill to put on Tik Tok for instant gratification, they just don't think of anything else until the sh...it hits the fan and it's only then they realised they seriously stuffed up.

[warthog1]

She has been taught to obey the laws, drive with consideration and to stay well away from her mobile when driving.

Really. Doesn't everyone these day get taught and examined on these three qualities nowadays?
But what people say they will do, and what they do... can be two different things.

So much awful and bullying driving habits from red P-platers seen personally in outer Sydney in recent months.

The point I was making there, that you have neglected to include, was that being in a car offers more protection than being on a bicycle.
However I like to believe she doesn't willingly create danger for others.
We have also bought her up to be honest and treat others with respect.
She drives safely as best I can tell.