Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[find_bruce]

None of this is new - read SMH: Cycling without a helmet in these suburbs the 'quickest route to police search' & then note the 19 communities listed at the end.

[Comedian]

]Yeah, it would be pretty cynical to leverage Aboriginal suffering for everyone's benefit. There are plenty of less polite words to describe it.

Let's just concentrate on how silly it is and change it from there.

I think, slowly, more and more people are shifting as the arguments get make over and over.

Anyone with an open mind can now find multiple, credible sources of comprehensive information that debunk the usefulness of MHL and clearly describe the harm it causes.

I agree - my point is that it seems to me that since Duncan Gay increased the helmet fine in NSW from $59 to $344, it is disproportionately enforced for First Nations people, particularly kids who cannot afford the fine

Those with long memories will recall the offensive language provisions which were abolished for the same reason

That's nothing. In QLD we had fine equalisation which was one of the deals made to get the 1M rule that they refuse to enforce. It's now $1000 if you get caught using your phone on your bike, because that's really dangerous in a car.

[warthog1]

Is there a country that is worse with respect to the way cycling is regarded?
I am not well travelled but Europe in particular appears so, so far ahead of us in that respect when you speak to those who have travelled and cycled there.

[Comedian]

Is there a country that is worse with respect to the way cycling is regarded?
I am not well travelled but Europe in particular appears so, so far ahead of us in that respect when you speak to those who have travelled and cycled there.

I think in large part it's because no one cycles, and those that do are "sports cyclists". so the regulatory environment for cycling is as directed by drivers for drivers. MHL does not affect drivers directly - it's no inconvenience for them. While that is the way, I can't see it changing.

I come back to covid and masks. Mask mandates affect politicians personally. They know most people consider it unpleasant, and makes people reluctant to do non essential things which affects "the economy". So what do we get, mask recommendations.. Yet you could pretty easily argue that mask mandates would have saved probably the total cycling fatalities in recorded history in Australia!. Yet that's a matter of personal responsibility.

Until MHL is applied to drivers...

I really do think masks are a good proxy for bicycle helmets.. except that masks have been proven effective at protecting the user and others.

[fat and old]

Is there a country that is worse with respect to the way cycling is regarded?
I am not well travelled but Europe in particular appears so, so far ahead of us in that respect when you speak to those who have travelled and cycled there.

There are 44 countries in europe with 750 million odd people

There are another 148 countries in the rest of the world, with another 7 thousand million people.

I’ll pay attention to cyclists who’ve travelled a little more widely than europe on the subject you raise.

[warthog1]

Is there a country that is worse with respect to the way cycling is regarded?
I am not well travelled but Europe in particular appears so, so far ahead of us in that respect when you speak to those who have travelled and cycled there.

There are 44 countries in europe with 750 million odd people

There are another 148 countries in the rest of the world, with another 7 thousand million people.

I’ll pay attention to cyclists who’ve travelled a little more widely than europe on the subject you raise.

Fair enough, as far as developed and relatively wealthy countries it seems we could do alot better.
I would prefer we were more like some European countries in that respect. There is certainly room for improvement.
I have heard however that the UK and the US are fairly ordinary also.

I don't see road cyclists being treated much better by other road users here anytime soon.
I am now very selective with respect to where and when I will ride on the road.

[fat and old]

None of this is new - read SMH: Cycling without a helmet in these suburbs the 'quickest route to police search' & then note the 19 communities listed at the end.

That whole socio-economic and underprivileged/indigenous argument really messes my head up. I know for a fact that groups are targeted….the example of the Greens councillor in Melbourne who attacked a trans person and came off second best was an egregious one…..but I also know for a fact that some groups (not individuals, groups) believe that they are exempt from any laws or simply don’t care. I have a particular hatred for the changing of laws to suit any group/cohort because “we should”……the exemption to Victoria’s MHL for instance.

No, beyond a harsh inflexible application of the law as it stands I don’t have the answers.

[fat and old]

Fair enough, as far as developed and relatively wealthy countries it seems we could do alot better.

You’d reckon so, aye? Unfortunately we don’t have the same history as say those european countries that are head and shoulders above us in that regard. At least in those areas that are popular with cyclists.

[warthog1]

Fair enough, as far as developed and relatively wealthy countries it seems we could do alot better.

You’d reckon so, aye? Unfortunately we don’t have the same history as say those european countries that are head and shoulders above us in that regard. At least in those areas that are popular with cyclists.

It is largely that they are more considerate and patient than us from what I hear.
The road isn't necessarily better in many areas there but the attitudes are.
It appears accepted here that cyclists are an outgroup here and it is ok to treat them like crap, they shouldn't be on the road.
One way to change that would be get more people out of cars and using other forms of transport.
More people you know who cycle the less of an outgroup they become.
There is very little government encouragement/investment in that.
There is more disincentive in the form of stupid fines, laws and enforcement than incentive it appears to me.
Maybe if driving just becomes as dear as poison that will change but I can hear the outrage already.

[jasonc]

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-li ... 022-295277

Cyprus introduces mandatory helmet law

From January 2023, cyclists in Cyprus will have to wear a helmet after the country’s parliament passed an amendment to the Bicycles Law last month.

According to the amendment, helmets will soon be mandatory for anyone cycling on the island’s roads, bike paths, cycle corridors and cycle lanes, as well for any passenger carried in a special bike seat.

Under the new law, offenders will face a €50 for failing to comply, while the Registrar of Motor Vehicles has been given the authority to approve or reject helmet types.

Chrysis Pantelides, the MP who initially proposed the amendment, argued that there has been an increase in road traffic collisions involving cyclists, and that a mandatory helmet law could potentially save riders from serious injury or death.

> Cyprus cyclists to be fined for taking hands off handlebars

The new law makes Cyprus only the fourth country in the world, after Argentina, Australia and New Zealand, to introduce a law which enforces helmet use by cyclists.

However, writing in the Cyprus Mail (link is external), Friends of the Earth Cyprus president and UCI-registered cycling coach Anastasia Korae opposed the new law and argued: “I myself wear a helmet every time I ride my bicycle in Cyprus or abroad but, considering the scientific evidence and all the examples from so many countries, I cannot defend an island-wide policy because it undermines the huge health, environmental, and social benefits of cycling.

“In reality, numbers show that the health benefits of riding a bicycle outweigh the risks of injury by a ratio ranging from 20:1 to 77:1, and this is a huge cost/benefit score.”

Korae continued: “This law was but a small example of how our parliament legislates by looking at poor or no evidence. A seemingly reasonable argument was all that was needed, and the relevant bill was passed without proper consultation and hardly any time for debate, giving most MPs no chance to shape an informed opinion.”

Cyprus’ new mandatory helmet law comes six years after a range of cycling offences were introduced by the republic’s parliament, including penalties for cycling without both hands on the handlebars unless indicating, cycling in pedestrian areas, towing objects by bike. holding a pet on a lead while cycling, and giving a passenger a lift on a bike.

[BobtheBuilder]

Is there a country that is worse with respect to the way cycling is regarded?
I am not well travelled but Europe in particular appears so, so far ahead of us in that respect when you speak to those who have travelled and cycled there.

Regarding Australia, in the small town in the Northern Territory town I live in, cyclists are treated exceptionally well. It'd be rare to be given less than a car width's passing distance and people will wait if oncoming traffic prevents that.

In fact, the only times I've had people abuse me or drive close, they have had interstate plates (except once, when a drunken passenger, who I didn't recognise as a local, gave me a very Sydney-style earful).

This has something to do with it being a small town of around 10K, where people know each other, but I'm sure also because most people are unhelmeted and there are way higher rates of utility cycling.

I'd be interested in hearing from people in the southern and eastern states from towns of a similar size if their experience is similar.

I'm not saying MHL leads directly to more cycle hatred, but it's got to play a part by getting people - particularly ordinary utility cyclists - off the road. There's also the evidence of risk compensation where drivers think a helmet is protective for a cyclist, so take less care when passing.

[warthog1]

I spent 15 years in Alice from 1991 -2006.
I rode a little but not that much.
I wore a helmet at that time.
Yes there were close passes.
Toward the end of our time there our neighbour who was a divorce with young kids was run over and killed by an intoxicated driver.
There were/are huge problems with alcoholism in central Oz. I don't see it as a particularly safe place to road cycle.
I don't know what it is like now.
I expect the alcohol problems are still there.
I wouldn't blame helmet use for the lack of safety.

Now in Victoria. There are regular close passes and a person I cycled with was hit and killed by a texting driver.
Helmet laws limit the number of people cycling I expect.
Lower prevalence would be the link I'd give it toward making cycling unsafe.
I don't see the helmet laws changing here in the foreseeable future.

[uart]

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-li ... 022-295277

Cyprus introduces mandatory helmet law

Cyprus’ new mandatory helmet law comes six years after a range of cycling offences were introduced by the republic’s parliament, including penalties for cycling without both hands on the handlebars unless indicating, cycling in pedestrian areas, towing objects by bike. holding a pet on a lead while cycling, and giving a passenger a lift on a bike.

So if you even reach for your biden to take a drink then you could be fined for not having both hands on the bars? Or even worse, with my downtube shifters it would be illegal to change gears. Wow, so there is one country in the world where the legislators are even more out of touch with the needs of cyclist than here in Australia.

[uart]

It appears accepted here that cyclists are an outgroup here and it is ok to treat them like crap, they shouldn't be on the road.
One way to change that would be get more people out of cars and using other forms of transport.
More people you know who cycle the less of an outgroup they become.
There is very little government encouragement/investment in that.
There is more disincentive in the form of stupid fines, laws and enforcement than incentive it appears to me.

Yes, and that in a nutshell sums up the unintended consequences of MHL and other punitive measures against cyclists, supposedly to keep them safe. If they discourage cycling as a "normal" thing to do then they end up doing more harm than good.

Just think for a moment what is the biggest issue impacting your safely when cycling. Is it
1. Whether or not you're wearing a helmet if you're just cruising to the shops.
2. Whether or not you sometimes roll though stop signs when the road is clear.
3. Or is it that half of the motorists in your area think that you shouldn't be on the road, see you as almost subhuman, and couldn't give a toss about your safety.

Think for a moment at just how much that last one outweighs almost every other thing that you could possibly do to improve your safety and you start to realise just how potent are the unintended consequences of laws that discourage or outgroup cyclists.

[warthog1]

It appears accepted here that cyclists are an outgroup here and it is ok to treat them like crap, they shouldn't be on the road.
One way to change that would be get more people out of cars and using other forms of transport.
More people you know who cycle the less of an outgroup they become.
There is very little government encouragement/investment in that.
There is more disincentive in the form of stupid fines, laws and enforcement than incentive it appears to me.

Yes, and that in a nutshell sums up the unintended consequences of MHL and other punitive measures against cyclists, supposedly to keep them safe. If they discourage cycling as a "normal" thing to do then they end up doing more harm than good.

Just think for a moment what is the biggest issue impacting your safely when cycling. Is it
1. Whether or not you're wearing a helmet if you're just cruising to the shops.
2. Whether or not you sometimes roll though stop signs when the road is clear.
3. Or is it that half of the motorists in your area think that you shouldn't be on the road, see you as almost subhuman, and couldn't give a toss about your safety.

Think for a moment at just how much that last one outweighs almost every other thing that you could possibly do to improve your safety and you start to realise just how potent are the unintended consequences of laws that discourage or outgroup cyclists.

It is a consequence but I would hardly blame the way I am treated on the road, or the quality of our driving, entirely on the helmet law.

From another thread;

'
The drivers of this trope - the conservative media - will just find something else to focus on. The goal here is to marginalise active transport and public transport to support their motor industry clientelle. The motor industry accounts for 11% of a $7.1bn total ad spend - $780m (2017 numbers).

There is significant negative commentary generated by sections of our media.
Add this to the selfish, pig-headed attitudes of many of our drivers and it becomes commonplace and acceptable to hate cyclists.
I don't see getting rid of a helmet law as singlehandedly rectifying the way cyclists on the road are treated or regarded by the driving public.

Regardless of any law I will still be wearing it for my type of cycling.
Yes it is a barrier for other types of cycling and affects cycling numbers but lets not pretend getting rid of it is going to turn our drivers into patient, safe, considerate folk singlehandedly.

Rather than just whinge about what is a stupid law I would still like to see the plan to get it removed that hasn't yet been presented in the thousands of posts in this thread.

[trailgumby]

I don't see getting rid of a helmet law as singlehandedly rectifying the way cyclists on the road are treated or regarded by the driving public.

You're right, it won't.

It's a bit like the public health measures that we had in place during the height of the pandemic. No single measure was going to solve the problem. Not social distancing, not vaccination, not contact tracing, not self-isolation, not personal responsibility for infection control, not restrictions on movement between LGAs.

But just because no one single measure is going to solve the entire problem doesn't mean we shouldn't do any of them. Each of them moves us in the right direction. We prevented hundreds of thousands of early deaths from Covid 19, and many more from unrelated conditions that would have been prevented from accessing medical care in an overwhelmed system.

Same with removing mandatory helmet laws. Not sufficient, but definitely necessary. Along with many other things. I agree the way back is not the same as the path that got us here.

It's on my list of things to fix. But it's not yet at the top of the list. Once the other items are closed out, it will get its turn.

[warthog1]

Plenty of the posts in this thread are written as if removing the mandatory helmet law is a fix all.

I haven't read a viable proposal to get rid of it.
I don't see it being rolled back anytime soon.
In many respects we are a selfish pigheaded nation.
Certainly in our driving standard and attitude toward others that is a very common characteristic.
Add to that device distraction and inattention and we are a sh it nation on our roads.

I don't see any chance of it going and I just don't see it making that much difference to driving behaviour if it did.
I'm still wearing a helmet.
I have had an ICH after an accident with one on. I'd be dead or brain injured weren't it there.
Call it selfish, perhaps it is, but I don't see the point in spending anytime concerning myself with it.
I agree it is an arse of a law in many ways but it isn't going by any action I am likely to take.

[bychosis]

If it’s going to get rolled back it will need to be baby steps, I’m guessing like the NT.

1. Lower the fine to sensible levels. Under $100.
2. Don’t police it for footpaths, residential streets etc. Don’t use it as a stop and search trigger.
3. Remove mandate for adults on cycle paths.
4. allow cycling on footpaths (outside busy urban centres).
5. Remove mandate for adults on roads with speed limit 40 or less.
6. Lower urban speed limits to 40 for all but arterial/through roads.

Maybe move 6 back a few steps. It’ll help with fuel consumption and greenhouse gases too.

Not holding my breath for any of this.

[trailgumby]

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-li ... 022-295277

Cyprus introduces mandatory helmet law

From January 2023, cyclists in Cyprus will have to wear a helmet after the country’s parliament passed an amendment to the Bicycles Law last month.
...
Korae continued: “This law was but a small example of how our parliament legislates by looking at poor or no evidence. A seemingly reasonable argument was all that was needed, and the relevant bill was passed without proper consultation and hardly any time for debate, giving most MPs no chance to shape an informed opinion.”

Cyprus’ new mandatory helmet law comes six years after a range of cycling offences were introduced by the republic’s parliament, including penalties for cycling without both hands on the handlebars unless indicating, cycling in pedestrian areas, towing objects by bike. holding a pet on a lead while cycling, and giving a passenger a lift on a bike.

This is going to be an excellent opportunity for collecting data on the impact of such laws. I predict that we will see the same outcomes and cultural shift as we saw instigated here 30 years ago: casual transportation cycling all but disappears, the only cyclists remaining being "sports" cyclists, who get out-grouped for wearing funny clothes.

[BobtheBuilder]

There were/are huge problems with alcoholism in central Oz. I don't see it as a particularly safe place to road cycle.

I don't live in Central Oz.

Very different vibe to the Top End down there.

But my experience, as a utility cyclist at least, was always pretty positive.

[brumby33]

If it’s going to get rolled back it will need to be baby steps, I’m guessing like the NT.

1. Lower the fine to sensible levels. Under $100.
2. Don’t police it for footpaths, residential streets etc. Don’t use it as a stop and search trigger.
3. Remove mandate for adults on cycle paths.
4. allow cycling on footpaths (outside busy urban centres).
5. Remove mandate for adults on roads with speed limit 40 or less.
6. Lower urban speed limits to 40 for all but arterial/through roads.

Maybe move 6 back a few steps. It’ll help with fuel consumption and greenhouse gases too.

Not holding my breath for any of this.

Still here in metropolitan Japan, Chiba prefecture and its so different over here.
Streets (more like one way lanes to us but are actually 2 way) are posted 30kph, some as low as 20kph I've seen, main thoroughfares are sign posted at 50kph although most are down to 40kph.
I haven't ridden a bicycle here yet but would not hesitate to if i had access to one and I don't dare to ride M-I-L's Mamachari bike as its her only form of tpt.
Bicycle parking stations everywhere, usually next to full but not all.
Riding on footpaths are allowed in most places and is the usual place to ride, people of all ages from 9 to 90 ride over here and is probably the reason they live so long.

I told the Mrs if I ever do a long stay over here again, i'm defintely buying my own bike or bring one with me.
All bicycles are registered with the local police when you have a bike here for theft reporting reasons. There have been bikes pinched from shopping centres and bikeparks.
I've even seen E-bikes here totally unlocked.

Car drivers here are so safety concious, not just their own but others like peds and cyclists. Cops over here ride on Honda step through motorcycles of about 100cc.

Very easy livable Country if you learn some of the language and of course, the food is awesome

[Thoglette]

Regardless of any law I will still be wearing it for my type of cycling.

A key point..

Rather than just whinge about what is a stupid law I would still like to see the plan to get it removed that hasn't yet been presented in the thousands of posts in this thread.

I am not sure that it can be removed: it’s existence is political and support a shibboleth for getting “taken seriously” by govt.

What can be done is to pull its teeth: make helmet use mandatory only for those who’d be wearing one anyway. E.g. “while using a foot retention device on a road with a speed limit over 50kph”.

The multi point plan is still a work in progress but it clearly (still) includes educating those who chose to wear & convincing them to stop supporting MHLs (hello MTBers); explaining to “industry” how much $$$ they’re missing out on; generally spreading the message that MHLs cost lives not save them; & encourage Mr Plod to focus on “real” Police matters.

This needs to deal with MHLs as one of a range of transport and justice issues: outside Operation Pedro, when was the last time anyone got a ticket for “Jaywalking” (except when doing so while Black)?

This also requires some slightly “bolshi” transport activist groups (like the old BTA but broader) to be the voice in the media & to govt. as the increasingly centralised “peak bodies” are far too busy sucking up to Govt (and the UCI & AOC) to risk disturbing the peace.

So, still not “A Proper Plan” but some themes and strategic thoughts.

What have I missed?

[BobtheBuilder]

It'd be great to see Critical Mass back!

Helmetless!!

But with the recent laws, they could all be sent to gaol for two years for obstructing a 'main road', which seems to include most of Sydney.

[fat and old]

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-li ... 022-295277

Cyprus introduces mandatory helmet law


This is going to be an excellent opportunity for collecting data on the impact of such laws. I predict that we will see the same outcomes and cultural shift as we saw instigated here 30 years ago: casual transportation cycling all but disappears, the only cyclists remaining being "sports" cyclists, who get out-grouped for wearing funny clothes.

Oh baby, I'm already all over this!

[fat and old]

Regardless of any law I will still be wearing it for my type of cycling.

A key point..

Rather than just whinge about what is a stupid law I would still like to see the plan to get it removed that hasn't yet been presented in the thousands of posts in this thread.

I am not sure that it can be removed: it’s existence is political and support a shibboleth for getting “taken seriously” by govt.

What can be done is to pull its teeth: make helmet use mandatory only for those who’d be wearing one anyway. E.g. “while using a foot retention device on a road with a speed limit over 50kph”.

The multi point plan is still a work in progress but it clearly (still) includes educating those who chose to wear & convincing them to stop supporting MHLs (hello MTBers); explaining to “industry” how much $$$ they’re missing out on; generally spreading the message that MHLs cost lives not save them; & encourage Mr Plod to focus on “real” Police matters.

This needs to deal with MHLs as one of a range of transport and justice issues: outside Operation Pedro, when was the last time anyone got a ticket for “Jaywalking” (except when doing so while Black)?

This also requires some slightly “bolshi” transport activist groups (like the old BTA but broader) to be the voice in the media & to govt. as the increasingly centralised “peak bodies” are far too busy sucking up to Govt (and the UCI & AOC) to risk disturbing the peace.

So, still not “A Proper Plan” but some themes and strategic thoughts.

What have I missed?

Reality. What "peak representative group" is gonna back down on MHL's?