War on cars

[opik_bidin]

Anyone read AAA FB status lately?
https://www.facebook.com/AusAutoAssociation

many are about how gas price is getting higher,

example :

The latest Australian Automobile Association transport affordability data shows Tasmanians are spending more of their income on transport than any other state or territory. On average commuters in #hobart fork out 17.5% on their household budget. While #launceston residents pay the largest proportion at 17.8%. RACT
---------------

Maybe, just maybe, we need to have transport alternatives and put jobs and amenities closer to residential so we don't need to spend too much on transport? just a thought

[Thoglette]

…. so we don't need to spend too much on transport?

It’s not just petrol

Dr Crozier, who is also the chair of the Royal Australian College of Surgeons' road trauma committee, said about 100 people were hospitalised each day by road crashes, costing the country $30 billion each year.

In the ABC Report Despite COVID lockdowns, road fatalities rose this year.
Which is more than we are spending on new freeways

Australia’s current approach to road spending will soon generate up to $20 billion every year in new public sector debt

The roads that ate the Australian economy – Part 1 of 2
Meanwhile our public transportation budget opex+capex is less than this.

[Thoglette]

Big Cars Are Killing Americans

Angie Schmitt, The Atlantic




Suggests that there's yet another attempt to address the lack of design standards (which we must share, as these things get licensed here)

Hidden within the Biden administration’s $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill is the U.S.’s first real attempt to address the regulatory shortfall. The bill requires that our five-star vehicle-safety-rating system—the New Car Assessment Program—be overhauled and that ratings be added for pedestrian impacts.

[mikesbytes]

Big Cars Are Killing Americans

Angie Schmitt, The Atlantic




Suggests that there's yet another attempt to address the lack of design standards (which we must share, as these things get licensed here)

Hidden within the Biden administration’s $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill is the U.S.’s first real attempt to address the regulatory shortfall. The bill requires that our five-star vehicle-safety-rating system—the New Car Assessment Program—be overhauled and that ratings be added for pedestrian impacts.

I've said this before there needs to be pedestrian safety built into the design rules. I'm aware of one model that if it detects hitting a pedestrian it pops the bonnet to give a softer head strike

[Shred11]

I've said this before there needs to be pedestrian safety built into the design rules.

Related to this: why is it that we allow people to defeat the pedestrian safety features of cars and 4x4s by fitting bull bars? I get that these devices serve a purpose for people who live in areas where there are a lot of animals on the road at night, but it seems that almost every SUV or 4x4 that I see in the city has had a bull bar fitted... apparently as an absurd fashion statement.

If I were to defeat a critical safety feature of my car - say I deliberately damaged the seatbelt webbing and a passenger in that car was subsequently killed or seriously injured because of that modification, there would be hell to pay. Defeat all the pedestrian and cyclist safety features by fitting a bull bar, then kill someone in a collision - "no worries: we're all good, nothing to see here".

[mikesbytes]

I've said this before there needs to be pedestrian safety built into the design rules.

Related to this: why is it that we allow people to defeat the pedestrian safety features of cars and 4x4s by fitting bull bars? I get that these devices serve a purpose for people who live in areas where there are a lot of animals on the road at night, but it seems that almost every SUV or 4x4 that I see in the city has had a bull bar fitted... apparently as an absurd fashion statement.

If I were to defeat a critical safety feature of my car - say I deliberately damaged the seatbelt webbing and a passenger in that car was subsequently killed or seriously injured because of that modification, there would be hell to pay. Defeat all the pedestrian and cyclist safety features by fitting a bull bar, then kill someone in a collision - "no worries: we're all good, nothing to see here".

We had discussion about bull bars a while back and one member pointed out that there are some bull bars that are designed with pedestrians in mind, however as you know most aren't. My view is that the motor vehicle needs to meet the same design rules with the bull bar fitted, be that for the occupants or people external to the vehicle.

[Thoglette]

I've said this before there needs to be pedestrian safety built into the design rules. I'm aware of one model that if it detects hitting a pedestrian it pops the bonnet to give a softer head strike

No arguments there.

But a Getz is a much safer vehicle for the range of VRUs on multiple counts: the driver is much more likely to be able to see you; an impact is going to be more survivable if (s)he hits you; and arguably is less likely to be driving too fast in the first place.

[warthog1]

I've said this before there needs to be pedestrian safety built into the design rules.

Related to this: why is it that we allow people to defeat the pedestrian safety features of cars and 4x4s by fitting bull bars? I get that these devices serve a purpose for people who live in areas where there are a lot of animals on the road at night, but it seems that almost every SUV or 4x4 that I see in the city has had a bull bar fitted... apparently as an absurd fashion statement.

If I were to defeat a critical safety feature of my car - say I deliberately damaged the seatbelt webbing and a passenger in that car was subsequently killed or seriously injured because of that modification, there would be hell to pay. Defeat all the pedestrian and cyclist safety features by fitting a bull bar, then kill someone in a collision - "no worries: we're all good, nothing to see here".

We had discussion about bull bars a while back and one member pointed out that there are some bull bars that are designed with pedestrians in mind, however as you know most aren't. My view is that the motor vehicle needs to meet the same design rules with the bull bar fitted, be that for the occupants or people external to the vehicle.

I do not live in the city. Don't often visit as I dislike it.
The problem with specifying no bars in the city is it will then be an argument that the rules should be extended everywhere.
I use my 4wd for the purpose it was designed. It has a bar.
There are many kangaroos around here. I have hit one in the Patrol despite trying not to. No damage.
Hit one in my other car and it very nearly wrote it off.

A lot of use off sealed roads and away from populated areas.
The bar has driving lights, light bar and electric winch.
All of those items require the bar and all are required for the type of use the vehicle is put to.

There are people who live in the city who may do similar.

Having said that the car weighs 3tonne unladen and is capable as a commuter but it is wear and tear and use that is not it's primary design preference.
I have a Suzuki swift for that and prefer to drive it in town or the city.

[fat and old]

But a Getz is a much safer vehicle for the range of VRUs on multiple counts………………………and arguably is less likely to be driving too fast in the first place.

What do you base that statement on? Exactly what evidence do you have that says a Getz driver is less likely to be speeding than a 4wd user? Seriously?

Something I’ve noticed over the last 12 months of ferrying Mum about is my personal driving speed limits. As she cannot get into my 4wd (at all), or any larger car comfortably I’ve been using at different times a Mazda2, Mazda3 or Suzuki Swift. These are the only cars I have driven. Supposedly safe, economic, “sensible” small vehicles. The 2 and the Swift are autos, the 3 and other Swift are manuals. I drive these as I drive my dirty 3 ton housebrick 4wd. To the prevailing conditions and within my own confidence (also keeping in mind they’re all somebody else’s).

I can tell you now that I simply don’t speed in the Patrol, in fact in town I’m usually 5-10km below the limit. I leave nice gaps in front of me. There is no such thing as accelerating anywhere. The same was true when I had Hi Lux’s, and especially so when I used a series 2 Landy.

This year, I found myself constantly having to check my speed. I’d drive closer to others. I’d lead the charge to the next lights. And this in those little cars. I couldn’t drive on “feel”. The Patrol and all the others “feel” right at speeds under the limit. Those others don’t feel right until over. ESPECIALLY the manuals.

I’d be interested to hear from others in a similar boat here.

[warthog1]

I’d be interested to hear from others in a similar boat here.

Yeah we have a range of vehicles in the family.
I drive the Patrol slower than the others.
Mine is an old goer a '00 GU.
It has live axles front and rear.
It feels more truck like than the other vehicles.
I have driven trucks.
I still like driving it but it just doesn't want to be driven fast, feels more comfortable and relaxed just plodding along.
The other vehicles are more sound proofed and smoother and lower.
The same speed in them feels slower.

[Tim]

This year, I found myself constantly having to check my speed. I’d drive closer to others. I’d lead the charge to the next lights. And this in those little cars. I couldn’t drive on “feel”. The Patrol and all the others “feel” right at speeds under the limit. Those others don’t feel right until over. ESPECIALLY the manuals.

I’d be interested to hear from others in a similar boat here.

These days I drive a little automatic Mazda 3. Only a couple of years old <50K on the clock.
Most of my driving is on the Princes Hwy between Lakes Entrance and Bairnsdale.
I wholeheartedly agree that it's difficult to judge speed on feel alone. Without cruise control on the open stretches and slowing to 60 through the towns takes a concentrated effort. If distracted by a (hands free) phone call it's easy to unwittingly top the limit. New cars are so smooth and quiet nowadays.
In the past I had always driven work type utes. A Navara, HiLux, and numerous old Ford and Holden utes. The old Fords and Holdens shook, rattled, things fell off, and thumped down the highway. You new all about it at anything over 80. The Japanese utes weren't much better. All of them took a physical and mental effort to drive. The road and engine noise was loud. Maintaining speed by feel was an easy unconscious action. The new car is entirely different. It wants to go (faster).

[opik_bidin]

Chiming in

for my situation, although I do often drive those huge SUV trucks (which are not actually trucks) they aren't up to the job. I work in agriculture and often go to the stone muddy roads.

In my case, the cars were Isuzu Dmax and Toyota Hilux, but for the job, its better to have pickups such as Mitsubishi L300, Mitsubishi T120SS, Suzuki Carry future, Isuzu trade, etc.

The cons are
1. Their carrying capacity is low,
2. they don't fit many narrow streets and forest/field roads, which are where we transport from and to.
3. High bed floor and tail gate means more effort and energy to put the items on.
4. When they fall off the cliff and get stuck (it happens) need more people and effort. the light pickups like Suzuki Futura can easily be moved using 10 people.
5. Much expensive maintenance and operating cost compared to the pickups I mentioned
6. Quite rare here in Bandung, so getting service and spareparts may be a challenge.
7. And they are much more expensive

And both are double cabin too. Its worst of the 2 worlds, They are not for carrying passengers and commuting, and also badly perform of transporting goods.

It's something I talked to about to just have a small car for commute and people transport, and then a pickup like L300 for goods transport, but they refuse to listen.

So in my case, it is a case of manhood showing, especially since its also a huge financial and administrations burden

[mikesbytes]

A problem with smaller cars is the short length of the bonnet and the problem with this is that in a collision with a pedestrian at the same speed as a vehicle with a longer bonnet is that the head strike is more likely to be on the harder windscreen rather than the softer bonnet

[Thoglette]

But a Getz is a much safer vehicle for the range of VRUs on multiple counts………………………and arguably is less likely to be driving too fast in the first place.

What do you base that statement on? Exactly what evidence do you have that says a Getz driver is less likely to be speeding than a 4wd user? Seriously?

Have you driven a Getz recently, particularly the cooking one with an auto and air conditioning on? (I have one in the driveway)

Meanwhile the "snazzy" 4WDs have 0-100 times near 6 seconds. Then there's the specials which are sub 4 seconds. My relatively anemic 1.4 turbo SUV is supposed to do 7.9, even with heaps of turbo laaaag.

If you like we can then get into demographics & behaviour patterns, particularly in the "work ute". (I've a few project's worth of data, which match plenty of HSE industry anecdotes).

Not much out there but the trends are consistent in those I've been able to access. If anyone has citations for more, particularly those with decent peer reviews (outside the gulf where a bit exists ), please PM me.

[BrisBoy]

In other news: how stupid is Elon's "solution" to subway style infrastructure?

[Tim]

https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-co ... WP82_8.pdf

My take from the above linked paper.
City based large 4WD owners are more often than not; beer drinking, fat, middle aged males who are morally conservative, homophobic, rascist, selfish, intolerant, aggressive and belligerent.
Yep, about meets with my casual observations.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Anyone read AAA FB status lately?
https://www.facebook.com/AusAutoAssociation

many are about how gas price is getting higher,

example :

The latest Australian Automobile Association transport affordability data shows Tasmanians are spending more of their income on transport than any other state or territory. On average commuters in #hobart fork out 17.5% on their household budget. While #launceston residents pay the largest proportion at 17.8%. RACT
---------------

Maybe, just maybe, we need to have transport alternatives and put jobs and amenities closer to residential so we don't need to spend too much on transport? just a thought

You've quoted a PERCENTAGE of household income. I wonder if they deviate in actual AMOUNT? Bear in mind that Tassie has the lowest income per capita of all states and NT and ACT, They around 8% short of the national average, and about 10-15% down on WA for example.

But as Tassie can be superimposed onto a postage stamp, one still wonders how they can drive far enough.

[ColinOldnCranky]

https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-co ... WP82_8.pdf

My take from the above linked paper.
City based large 4WD owners are more often than not; beer drinking, fat, middle aged males who are morally conservative, homophobic, rascist, selfish, intolerant, aggressive and belligerent.
Yep, about meets with my casual observations.

I have a large 4WD, love Chard and other dry wines way past my taste in beer, have, since my teens, been an easy touch for pretty well any disadvantaged person or group, have no objecction to higher taxes and restrict my judgement of others mostly to those who dislike homosexuals, immigrants and coloured and those who think the answer to all our social problems is more gaol time.

So after reading that Australia Institute paper, I have come to the conclusion that I don't fit anywhere. Clearly I'm a social outcast.

[Thoglette]

Clearly I'm a social outcast.

Don’t anyone mention the missing wheel

(For the humour deprived, statistically every group has outliers. Which is Colin’s point, I think. )

[fat and old]

Have you driven a Getz recently, particularly the cooking one with an auto and air conditioning on? (I have one in the)

Your anecdotal evidence vs my anecdotal evidence lol. Fair enough. But at least you’ll always provide something to back your assertions. I clicked “demographic”, enlarged it on my phone, and the first thing that popped out was “4wd drivers are more likely to dislike homosexuals”. Note, it specifically says homosexuals with no mention of lesbians at all. Nor transsexuals. Now I’ve been pretty impressed by some of the ladyboys I’ve seen in my time, so maybe there’s some truth in that. I’ll have to dig deeper.

[Retrobyte]

https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-co ... WP82_8.pdf

My take from the above linked paper.
City based large 4WD owners are more often than not; beer drinking, fat, middle aged males who are morally conservative, homophobic, rascist, selfish, intolerant, aggressive and belligerent.
Yep, about meets with my casual observations.

In Sydney the big European SUVs and Lexus SUVs are more often than not driven by mums dropping the kids off at school. Seems a leased luxury brand SUV is part of keeping up with the Jones' (or the Kumars, Lees, or Zhangs)

I drive a wagon (Skoda Superb) because I enjoy the driving experience far better than when I owned an SUV (Mazda CX9). Wife is on her second Mazda 3 - excellent car too

[queequeg]

https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-co ... WP82_8.pdf

My take from the above linked paper.
City based large 4WD owners are more often than not; beer drinking, fat, middle aged males who are morally conservative, homophobic, rascist, selfish, intolerant, aggressive and belligerent.
Yep, about meets with my casual observations.

In Sydney the big European SUVs and Lexus SUVs are more often than not driven by mums dropping the kids off at school. Seems a leased luxury brand SUV is part of keeping up with the Jones' (or the Kumars, Lees, or Zhangs)

I drive a wagon (Skoda Superb) because I enjoy the driving experience far better than when I owned an SUV (Mazda CX9). Wife is on her second Mazda 3 - excellent car too

I drive a Mazda6, my wife has the Hyundai SantaFe with the Turbo Diesel (it’s a pretty impressive engine). She wants to get a new car once the Santa Fe loan is finished in 12 months, since the Santa Fe is actually in my name because at the time my wife had only just started working again and the bank didn’t like her employment history.
So, i told her I don’t care if she wants to do another car as I’ll be able to sell the Mazda (which will be 16 years old by then). The Mazda has been great but recently it has prevented me accessing some gravel routes I like to do because it’s front wheel drive and quite low clearance.
I’m on the fence as to whether to keep the Santa Fe or trade it. I’ve been looking at the Subaru Outback which has more clearance than the Santa Fe, is still AWD and has a wagon feel. Plenty of time to decide anyway

[Andy01]

My take from the above linked paper.
City based large 4WD owners are more often than not; beer drinking, fat, middle aged males who are morally conservative, homophobic, rascist, selfish, intolerant, aggressive and belligerent.
Yep, about meets with my casual observations.

In Sydney the big European SUVs and Lexus SUVs are more often than not driven by mums dropping the kids off at school. Seems a leased luxury brand SUV is part of keeping up with the Jones' (or the Kumars, Lees, or Zhangs)

I drive a wagon (Skoda Superb) because I enjoy the driving experience far better than when I owned an SUV (Mazda CX9). Wife is on her second Mazda 3 - excellent car too

I drive a Mazda6, my wife has the Hyundai SantaFe with the Turbo Diesel (it’s a pretty impressive engine). She wants to get a new car once the Santa Fe loan is finished in 12 months, since the Santa Fe is actually in my name because at the time my wife had only just started working again and the bank didn’t like her employment history.
So, i told her I don’t care if she wants to do another car as I’ll be able to sell the Mazda (which will be 16 years old by then). The Mazda has been great but recently it has prevented me accessing some gravel routes I like to do because it’s front wheel drive and quite low clearance.
I’m on the fence as to whether to keep the Santa Fe or trade it. I’ve been looking at the Subaru Outback which has more clearance than the Santa Fe, is still AWD and has a wagon feel. Plenty of time to decide anyway

I suspect you would notice a power difference between a diesel Sante Fe and a 2.5L petrol Outback, and the Outback is also permanent AWD, whereas I think the Sante Fe is "on demand". I had a 2.0L diesel Outback from 2010 to 2015 and it was a very nice car - the diesel was a ripper compared to the petrol Outback (which felt gutless by comparison). The only problem with the diesel Outbacks (apart from them selling them anymore) was that you really had to watch out for the particulate filter if you did mostly town driving - I replaced the Outback with a diesel VW Passat wagon Highline and the VW (though a "standard" wagon) handles the short trips with zero particulate filter issues, has more power & torque and is much a smoother drive.

[warthog1]

https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-co ... WP82_8.pdf

My take from the above linked paper.
City based large 4WD owners are more often than not; beer drinking, fat, middle aged males who are morally conservative, homophobic, rascist, selfish, intolerant, aggressive and belligerent.
Yep, about meets with my casual observations.

I have been a member of Patrol 4x4 for longer than here.
Given up for the last couple of years though.
That demographic you posted is broadly a fairly accurate description of many that post on there.
You can add a heavy right wing bias and that climate change is a construct of greenies and the media. It has no basis in reality despite data indicating it exists.

That pretty well did me in.
Good for mechanical info, but to gain that you have to ignore the bigotry and right wing garbage to get to it.
Just became too hard to avoid so I don't visit really.
Miss a few of the more reasonable punters on there though.

[queequeg]

I suspect you would notice a power difference between a diesel Sante Fe and a 2.5L petrol Outback, and the Outback is also permanent AWD, whereas I think the Sante Fe is "on demand". I had a 2.0L diesel Outback from 2010 to 2015 and it was a very nice car - the diesel was a ripper compared to the petrol Outback (which felt gutless by comparison). The only problem with the diesel Outbacks (apart from them selling them anymore) was that you really had to watch out for the particulate filter if you did mostly town driving - I replaced the Outback with a diesel VW Passat wagon Highline and the VW (though a "standard" wagon) handles the short trips with zero particulate filter issues, has more power & torque and is much a smoother drive.

Our SantaFe is AWD all the time. It has a couple of features for controlled steep descents that we have never used (along with all the other stuff like parking assist, lane assist etc). The SantaFe also does not contain a particulate filter so there is nothing to get clogged up.

I have plenty of time to look at options. I like the Hyundai Tucson as a smaller version of the SantaFe. The lack of a diesel option on
the Outback is one of the downsides given
the petrol is not even a Turbo. I’ll have to shortlist some options. As the second car it doesn’t need to be big like the SantaFe (which we got because it has more boot space with the 3rd row not in use, and as it was a demonstrator (service managers car) fully optioned, we got a really good price on it).