Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[g-boaf]

I got screamed at to "get off the f@#$ road" by a truck driver. I've never had that wearing a helmet.

*brings back shudders*

Here in south-western Ireland, where I'm temporarily residing / stuck, you'll get a car width berth when overtaking or they'll slow down, well behind, without any impatience, for ages, until they can overtake with masses of room. You realise how toxic the car driving culture in southern Australia is once you get away from it ... and even more so when you don't have a helmet. Sort of like "you're not wearing a helmet for your own safety, therefore I've got a right to recklessly endanger your life with my tonne(s) of metal".

Even on major roads in Serbia, probably the most reckless drivers we encountered on our cross-continental ride last year, I never encountered that sense of constant fear, let alone active aggression, that is the norm in southern Australia...

*more shudders*

People wear helmets when riding in France (the old guy on his morning ride up the local hill for instance) and everyone still passes safely. The same is the case in Italy.

I love riding in those two countries because of the mature driving behaviour.

[BobtheBuilder]

People wear helmets when riding in France (the old guy on his morning ride up the local hill for instance) and everyone still passes safely. The same is the case in Italy.

I love riding in those two countries because of the mature driving behaviour.

In the six weeks I was there last year, about the only people I saw with helmets were the people riding performance bikes, usually road bikes. People utility cycling or touring rarely did.

[g-boaf]

People wear helmets when riding in France (the old guy on his morning ride up the local hill for instance) and everyone still passes safely. The same is the case in Italy.

I love riding in those two countries because of the mature driving behaviour.

In the six weeks I was there last year, about the only people I saw with helmets were the people riding performance bikes, usually road bikes. People utility cycling or touring rarely did.

Well pardon the 60-70 year olds on their vintage performance road bikes.

[uart]

Well pardon the 60-70 year olds on their vintage performance road bikes.

Sixty to seventy year olds on vintage performance bikes. Did someone just tag me?

[g-boaf]

Well pardon the 60-70 year olds on their vintage performance road bikes.

Sixty to seventy year olds on vintage performance bikes. Did someone just tag me?

If you are in the Rhône-Alpes yes.

Unbelievable seeing them riding up pretty decent sized hills fairly effortlessly. Okay not super fast but not too bad either!

It helps having a big mountain close to your home!

[baabaa]

And I have been out on the bike most days over the past two months and have not had a puncture, so, punctures no longer happen to anyone...
Meantime... 33 secondes au carrefour Rivoli/Sébastopol, mardi 9 juin, 18h37

https://twitter.com/CommuteDeParis/stat ... 0504724481

[Peter A]

Thanks for the link baabaa, about 50% were wearing helmets.
And, just under that vid was this riveting piece of info that most of us would have never known -
"The howler monkey, thanks to a hyoid bone under the tongue, is the noisiest land animal in the world! Its cry is equivalent to a fanfare of 200 members (140 dB) and heard at ~ 5 km! It is surprisingly proven that the smaller his testicles, the more powerful his cry ..."

[outnabike]

No mention here but on the tv news it was reported the cyclist was originally stopped for no helmet. He didn't understand how a helmet can save his head so apparently several punch we logged with him to show haw hurt you can get..... Ok my poetic license here.

But it is one to watch as the didn't charge him with any thing so far. This might even come out as justice through a mobile camera.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia ... id=UE01DHP
Probe after police filmed 'pinning Indigenous man to the ground'
Alice Higgins
1 hour ago
Police officials say they are investigating an incident in which officers were filmed pinning a man to the ground, with claims one officer punched the man while arresting him in Adelaide, South Australia.

The incident happened on Albert St, Kilburn, about 9.30pm yesterday.
The video was posted on social media this morning
Witnesses claim it shows officers using excessive and unnecessary force to arrest a man they say is Indigenous.
Those witnesses allege it all unfolded because the man was riding a bike without a light or helmet.
Police say they were originally called to a report of domestic violence, in which a woman was hurt and taken to hospital.
They say the man was suspected of having illegal drugs on him.
This afternoon, South Australian Police commissioner, Grant Stevens said a probe would look at police bodycam footage, evidence from the scene and witness statements.
He adding officers can use "reasonable force" on suspects.
"Police at this time advised the man that they had suspicions concerning him being in possession of illicit drugs. He was asked to place his hands on his head while a search of his person was undertaken."
Police said the man was compliant but after a short time, he began to refuse.
"Police attempted to arrest the man who resisted and a struggle ensued," they said.
"Police and the man went to the ground as police attempted to restrain and handcuff him.
"It was during the process of arrest that the body worn camera worn by one of the officers was grabbed and only parts of the camera have been located."
A number of "agitated" nearby residents then confronted police, before urgent backup was called.
Pepper spray was used by police.

[fat and old]

I can't imagine any reason anyone would want to be a police officer these days. If you can't use force to detain an unwilling person or defend youself what do you do? Let them walk away? This whole lynch mob via phones is bs.

[BobtheBuilder]

I can't imagine any reason anyone would want to be a police officer these days. If you can't use force to detain an unwilling person or defend youself what do you do? Let them walk away? This whole lynch mob via phones is bs.

I know. There were only four of them armed, trained people with the force of the state behind them, all on top of an effectively subdued citizen - of course you'd need to swing in repeated punches to defend yourself.

Although, now I think about it ... lynch mob. Mmmm ... wasn't that something about groups of armed white racists killing innocent unarmed black people? Often with the tacit - or active - support of the police?

Don't remember lynch mobs murdering people by sharing evidence of wrongdoing.

Black lives matter.

[g-boaf]

I can't imagine any reason anyone would want to be a police officer these days. If you can't use force to detain an unwilling person or defend youself what do you do? Let them walk away? This whole lynch mob via phones is bs.

If I was to detain you with my knee on your neck and caused your death, would you call it appropriate or hope that there were people with phones around who could see I was doing the wrong thing. You could also complain about the lynch mob by bicycle cameras too.

[fat and old]

Always with the extreme scenarios. Where did I say anything about deaths, knees on necks or black lives matter? Seriously, all you two have done is reinforce my position.

There will always be disagreement about how much "force" is required in situations that call for it. There will always be disagreement about when force is needed. I'm not going to apologise for what I said, nor change my mind. I've seen and participated in "protests" where police force was the only thing that was going to stop worse things happen. I've been part of "protests" where the aim was to provoke police into heavy action to claim the moral upper hand (I have not participated in the recent protests). I've seen a minor disagreement evolve into a fight for life, minor disagreements evolve into all in brawls. What are you proposing? A thunderdome situation, let 'em all at it? I have a healthy enough respect for police (that has evolved over time.....it's always time....) that leads me to believe they shouldn't have to put up with abuse or threats of any kind. You wouldn't want to be threatened, so why should they? I do recognise that others feel different to that, and fair enough. They're entitled to that, and if the majority was to feel that way and it was acted upon legally then fair enough again.

A few years ago I removed a roadworks sign from a cycle lane. A couple people started filming me on their phones. Is that ok? What about the contractor who was using a demo saw without earmuffs (he had earplugs in, the filmer didn't see them!!) who had the vid sent to Melbourne council who then tracked him down and spent a couple hours working it out? I say it again. xxxx phone vids. Vexatious users are blight and a lynch mob.

[warthog1]

Would that murder by a police officer whilst restraining by kneeling on his neck have resulted in any consequences or action without the incident being filmed?
Unlikely imo.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/
How much action have all those deaths resulted in?

How that makes film of a murder the actions of a lyncher I fail to see.
Inexcuseable actions resulting in death should be punished and systemic changes introduced to limit the chance of it happening in future.
I am personally very thankful that incident was filmed.
I cannot comprehend how I would feel had the victim been a family member of mine.
It must have been so hard for them to watch.
I expect they would be glad it revealed the crime however.

[g-boaf]

If it's not okay for people to be filming with their phone cameras, then it's time to make illegal those bicycle cameras too.

We don't seem to complain about those.

[fat and old]

Would that murder by a police officer whilst restraining by kneeling on his neck have resulted in any consequences or action without the incident being filmed?
Unlikely imo.

It’s true, and i’ll Concede that there are times and places that this tech is a god send. The murder of that bloke by the two or three redneck scum is another example, and the morons filmed it themselves!

How that makes film of a murder the actions of a lyncher I fail to see.

I wasn’t limiting my complaints to a single instance Warty. Yes, my language was all encompassing and left no room for normal considerations, so I’ve corrected that.

I should have remembered people are only too happy to jump on any particular part of a statement that will allow their outrage and need for validation to be expressed.

Boaf, I said nothing of bike cameras, dash cams etc. There are limits and exceptions.

Black lives matter. That’s a nice sig. Where was it 6 months ago? Bandwagon jumpers.

[warthog1]

Would that murder by a police officer whilst restraining by kneeling on his neck have resulted in any consequences or action without the incident being filmed?
Unlikely imo.

It’s true, and i’ll Concede that there are times and places that this tech is a god send. The murder of that bloke by the two or three redneck scum is another example, and the morons filmed it themselves!

How that makes film of a murder the actions of a lyncher I fail to see.

I wasn’t limiting my complaints to a single instance Warty. Yes, my language was all encompassing and left no room for normal considerations, so I’ve corrected that.

I should have remembered people are only too happy to jump on any particular part of a statement that will allow their outrage and need for validation to be expressed.

Boaf, I said nothing of bike cameras, dash cams etc. There are limits and exceptions.

Black lives matter. That’s a nice sig. Where was it 6 months ago? Bandwagon jumpers.

Well you've quoted me so I'll assume the bold bit is encompassing myself.

The demonstrations and unrest have happened in the shadow of the filmed murder of a detained black man.
He said he couldn't breathe yet the policeman continues to kneel on his neck for 8 minutes.

You have come out with this statement in the current circumstances

I say it again. xxxx phone vids. Vexatious users are blight and a lynch mob.

Given the circumstances are largely a response initiated by that video, I see the statement as unsupported by the current events.
I am not outraged or seeking validation, I just disagree.
I don't see a lynching mentality as being the motivation behind filming it.
I am glad it was filmed exposing the crime and shining a light on the attitudes that allowed it to take place.

[g-boaf]

Would that murder by a police officer whilst restraining by kneeling on his neck have resulted in any consequences or action without the incident being filmed?
Unlikely imo.

It’s true, and i’ll Concede that there are times and places that this tech is a god send. The murder of that bloke by the two or three redneck scum is another example, and the morons filmed it themselves!

How that makes film of a murder the actions of a lyncher I fail to see.

I wasn’t limiting my complaints to a single instance Warty. Yes, my language was all encompassing and left no room for normal considerations, so I’ve corrected that.

I should have remembered people are only too happy to jump on any particular part of a statement that will allow their outrage and need for validation to be expressed.

Boaf, I said nothing of bike cameras, dash cams etc. There are limits and exceptions.

Black lives matter. That’s a nice sig. Where was it 6 months ago? Bandwagon jumpers.

Those bike cameras can also turn into a lynch mob as well as you must admit when everyone turns on the alleged wrongdoer.

Police themselves have their own cameras, so it’s all well for other people to film as well. It’s how modern society is and also why we use dash cams. We’ve also caught Police doing the wrong thing as well on those dash cams. Same with other public officials.

[BobtheBuilder]

I don't see a lynching mentality as being the motivation behind filming it.

The thing that's particularly nauseating and provocative about using the word "lynch" in this context is that it is a practice that was invented by racist whites to murder blacks in the southern United States - not a practice of exposing wrongdoing in order to get justice.

Fat and old seems, at least lately, fond of ad hominem attacks and other plausibly deniable pot-stirring. Lets the fart go then looks around innocently .. *who me?*

[fat and old]

I don't see a lynching mentality as being the motivation behind filming it.

The thing that's particularly nauseating and provocative about using the word "lynch" in this context is that it is a practice that was invented by racist whites to murder blacks in the southern United States - not a practice of exposing wrongdoing in order to get justice.

Fat and old seems, at least lately, fond of ad hominem attacks and other plausibly deniable pot-stirring. Lets the fart go then looks around innocently .. *who me?*

I will say this....the use of the word lynch was in no way meant to signify anything at all. It was a very, very poor choice of word given the current situation, and one I wished I hadn't made. There's no one to apologise too, so I won't, but I do recognise the error of my ways there.

You may want to check on the history and origin of the word tho. I'm not sure it originated with black American hangings.

[warthog1]

I will say this....the use of the word lynch was in no way meant to signify anything at all. It was a very, very poor choice of word given the current situation, and one I wished I hadn't made. There's no one to apologise too, so I won't, but I do recognise the error of my ways there.

You may want to check on the history and origin of the word tho. I'm not sure it originated with black American hangings.

Mate you are one of the very few who will openly apologise or admit error for anything written.
So kudos
There are a few apologies I should have made on here over the years I reckon, but didn't.
The errors are numerous

[baabaa]

Been a bit weed off in our house about the whats and whys and ifs of the past year from drought to fires to virus stuff, then the indo/china border bits (a region which I simply adore) and then all this as above.
We have gradually shut down most of Aust news apart from SBS and just pick and choose youtube DW and France 24 for some international balance.
Last night we did Netflick and returned to the Burns Viet Nam war doco for some reason. If anyone cares or has the time check out Ep 7
http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam ... episode-7/

So seems we have an easy count of more than 50 years of this heavy approach to marches and not to mention the heavy hand history on film or video ( maybe?). We really seem to be going one step forward and three back. (I guess back on topic but worth checking out the helmets the police used back then...)
At least NZ have opted to go back to no weapons coppers.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ic-concern
Maybe we could and should do that again in Aust to help heal the nations prevailing poor feeling of well-being.

[fat and old]

Ken Burns does excellent docos, enough reason to have netflix. I could almost recite that Vietnam one verbatim....

If a parallel of our indigenous issues is on the menu, his The West should be viewed.

[tpcycle]

For the life of me I can't think of any link between MHLs and BLMs. Is this the off topic forum? Or are MHLs dead? (Foolish me, of course they're not. Mr Plod is still able to prosecute me. Usually with great gusto.).

[AUbicycles]

Admin Says - As a suggestion... for non-helmet discussions or topics that are move beyond the central theme, feel free to start a new thread and by all means - create link to the new thread.

[human909]

For the life of me I can't think of any link between MHLs and BLMs. Is this the off topic forum?

Apart from the indirect link of oppression and disregard of 'out groups' to which cyclists are definitely one in our society. Cyclists are treated like dirt by many in society and this includes the police.

More directly MHLs have for decades been used to target indigenous groups. This is well documented and was the primary reason that NT took steps to relax MHLS.