Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[Peter A]

I read statements like this -
"The point isn't the individuals, the point is that the policing system as a whole disproportionately targets the more vulnerable, as the data discussed above demonstrates."
And offer the following - if the dopey bstds can't work out they'll get booked and continue to offend, why should police treat them any different based on ethnic origin ?
Ethnic origin is irrelevant, they cannot be booked if they wear a helmet and please, don't try to BS that some people can't afford to buy one.
The "Poor fella me" approach is rubbish and bleeding heart people make it worse by siding with the dills and giving them tacit approval to keep on keeping on!

[human909]

if the dopey bstds can't work out they'll get booked and continue to offend, why should police treat them any different based on ethnic origin ?

R U serious!?

[BobtheBuilder]

And offer the following - if the dopey bstds can't work out they'll get booked and continue to offend, why should police treat them any different based on ethnic origin ?

The "dopey bstds" get fined disproportionately in poorer areas. They don't commit more offences, they are more likely to be fined or otherwise punished. There's whole careers been devoted to demonstrating this, forests of trees been sacrificed to provide the empirical evidence for this.

[tpcycle]

I read statements like this -
"The point isn't the individuals, the point is that the policing system as a whole disproportionately targets the more vulnerable, as the data discussed above demonstrates."
And offer the following - if the dopey bstds can't work out they'll get booked and continue to offend, why should police treat them any different based on ethnic origin ?
Ethnic origin is irrelevant, they cannot be booked if they wear a helmet and please, don't try to BS that some people can't afford to buy one.
The "Poor fella me" approach is rubbish and bleeding heart people make it worse by siding with the dills and giving them tacit approval to keep on keeping on!

I solve this by spending most of my time riding in countries where the dopey bstds in charge haven't gone full retard and enacted dopey MHLs like only the really dopey bstds here have done.

[London Boy]

I solve this by spending most of my time riding in countries where the dopey bstds in charge haven't gone full retard and enacted dopey MHLs like only the really dopey bstds here have done.

This ^^^.

What is it about Australians they have to be regulated to within an inch of their sanity?

[fat and old]

The "dopey bstds" get fined disproportionately in poorer areas. They don't commit more offences, they are more likely to be fined or otherwise punished.

Im in no doubt of the studies that show “they” are more likely to offend. None. I’m not so sure that I’m agreeing that “they don’t commit more offences”. Nothing I’ve read (which is very limited) has shown that. I’ve always thought it was just a vicious circle that is targeted based on opportunity. Personal observation certainly reinforces that. This isn’t limited to helmet wearing.

[DavidS]

Of course, the higher rate of incarceration of indigenous Australians, and the higher rate of getting booked for not wearing helmets in poorer areas happens in a vacuum. In this vacuum there is no discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or wealth.

This vacuum is a fiction, the real world works very differently. Everything happens in a context. The context in this case is racism and prejudice.

Throw in a stupid law and you have a great excuse for harassing people you just want to hassle, well, just because.

DS

[BobtheBuilder]

The context in this case is racism and prejudice.

Yep. Can't believe we're seriously debating that disadvantaged communities get treated differentially, that administrative laws are used to keep people in their place. Of course they do, of course they are.
This isn't the main issue with MHLs, but it is certainly yet another reason why they're highly undesirable. And yet another reason why they inhibit normal, everyday, utility cycling.

[BobtheBuilder]

Go up there and fix it.
I wish you luck

I've lived in Katherine for the last 15 years. Know Alice Springs well. Worked in lots of remote Aboriginal communities. The NT police are actually far better than in other states, in my experience, but they still disproportionately target Aboriginal people, for mostly minor offences that a well-off person in Bondi wouldn't even regard as worth the police stopping for. No-one would say that places like Alice Springs are easy or that solutions are simple, but what is clear is that (some) people in those communities are likely to be fined or arrested for things that others wouldn't be. Though not for MHLs, which are barely policed at all and attract a tiny fine (I was fined once, the only person I know, and after I made a police complaint, the senior officer who handled the complaint pretty much apologised and said the officers who fined me were inexperienced and it really wasn't a priority!).

[warthog1]

Good for you mate.
They are targetted at times I agree and there is a large racist element in the white community (was during my time there anyway).
I worked in remote area housing when I first got there.
I left after dealing with the repurcussions of the violent conflict resolution that was endemic, in my final job.
I found staying there unsustainable.

Yes they can be targetted but yes there are huge social problems too, that aren't resolving.

[Comedian]

Out today for a ride. I'm not as fit as I should be.

Saw quite a few helmetless riders. Which is quite an uncommon occurrence in Melbourne. Mostly minors or young adult males riding on footpaths. I suppose it is a positive sign... A slight nudge away from the helmets regime. But really these are different times. Until people can feel the comfort to ride to the shops unharassed then we still have an issue.

I wear a helmet for most of my short trips around the suburbs. Not because I'm in the slightest worried about safety - it's just the inconvenience is less that the threat of the argument.

[uart]

I wear a helmet for most of my short trips around the suburbs. Not because I'm in the slightest worried about safety - it's just the inconvenience is less that the threat of the argument.

Are you referring to arguments with the law/police or with other cyclists Comedian?

[human909]

I wear a helmet for most of my short trips around the suburbs. Not because I'm in the slightest worried about safety - it's just the inconvenience is less that the threat of the argument.

That is pretty much my reason. Riding with the wind in my hair might be refreshing but it is less refreshing and not worth the hassle if I keep having to look over my shoulder in case there is a cop about. Overall the chances on getting caught by a cop is pretty low, but I've already been a been unlucky and last time I left home without a helmet I got pulled over and admonished (no fine).

I really don't mind helmets too much. Its not a big bother to me. But I'd prefer not to have to be hassled if I happen to forget. (most of the time it is because I'm cold and wearing a beanie!)

[DavidS]

The only reason I wear a helmet is the fine. I just wish I had a choice.

DS

[Thoglette]

Riding with the wind in my hair might be refreshing

The fun bit is when you're a long way from home and then notice the wind in your hair...

[BobtheBuilder]

I live in the NT usually, where helmet-wearing is very rare outside of performance cyclists (where it's ubiquitous). Spent six months riding the Eurovelo 6 from the Black sea to the Atlantic last year, then been in Ireland half a year. Haven't worn a helmet in years, except on the rare occasions I'm in other states.
I would hate to have to wear one all the time or worry about a copper handing me a massive fine if I didn't.

[Comedian]

I wear a helmet for most of my short trips around the suburbs. Not because I'm in the slightest worried about safety - it's just the inconvenience is less that the threat of the argument.

Are you referring to arguments with the law/police or with other cyclists Comedian?

in the local suburbs I think the chance of being done by a cop is pretty slim. But for example.. a little while ago I rode to bunnings from home, which is less than 900m away. I rode the electric bike in my normal civvies... I have to cross a main road though .. which I chose to use the traffic lane and lights to turn right. I got screamed at to "get off the f@#$ road" by a truck driver. I've never had that wearing a helmet.

If I was objective - I should just drive like everyone else but I believe it's the wrong thing to do so I choose to ride anyway. In reality it's not a big enough deterrent for me but I totally understand why it is for most for that kind of trip. #straya

I'd also like to say that it highlights the inequity of bicycle offences. If you aren't wearing a helmet, or using your mobile phone ($1000 fine in QLD) everyone who looks at you can see it, and on a bike you're a relatively easy target to catch. Compare this to a car driver where they have so much ability to hide, and then to "disappear".

[uart]

Riding with the wind in my hair might be refreshing

The fun bit is when you're a long way from home and then notice the wind in your hair...

Yeah, that's usually the first sign that you've forgotten to put on your helmet.

I live hear the top of a hill so it's normally downhill for the first 500m of any ride for me. So if I ever forget mine, it's usually then that I notice it. I still have to ride all the way back up the hill get it though.

Turns out it's not only the helmet I can forget though. Last year I got out of bed pretty sleepy but had to push myself to get on the bike because I was meeting some friends for a ride (at the bottom of that hill as it turns out). As I rode down I spent the entire time trying to click into my pedals but something just wasn't working properly. It wasn't until the very bottom (and in front of my friends) that I realised I had my road (SL) pedals and my MTB (SPD) shoes.

[Arbuckle23]

The fun bit is when you're a long way from home and then notice the wind in your hair...

Wind on my skull!
Hair is but a distant memory

[uart]

I got screamed at to "get off the f@#$ road" by a truck driver. I've never had that wearing a helmet.

Ok I see what you mean. Yes only anecdotal, but similar experiences here with me if helmetless.

What I've noticed and suspect, is that some drivers take the attitude that: "if he is not going to obey the law, then why should I" kind of thing. You may also notice some drivers deliberately pulling out on you from stop signs and other places where they know that they have to give way (even more often than usual), and it's the above thinking that I believe drives it.

[Comedian]

I got screamed at to "get off the f@#$ road" by a truck driver. I've never had that wearing a helmet.

Ok I see what you mean. Yes only anecdotal, but similar experiences here with me if helmetless.

What I've noticed and suspect, is that some drivers take the attitude that: "if he is not going to obey the law, then why should I" kind of thing. You may also notice some drivers deliberately pulling out on you from stop signs and other places where they know that they have to give way (even more often than usual), and it's the above thinking that I believe drives it.

Yes it's anecdotal but you have to make your own calls. There have been other instances too. I've seen helmetless riders lectured by other cyclists. It's just not worth the hassle for me so I just wear one. I can understand why the significant number or people that don't want to wear one.. it's just the door closer to cycling. Cycling is dead to them. Easier to drive or do other activities that aren't regulated.

On the odd occasion I do ride helmetless I'm always amazed at just how pleasant it is.

[BobtheBuilder]

I got screamed at to "get off the f@#$ road" by a truck driver. I've never had that wearing a helmet.

*brings back shudders*

Here in south-western Ireland, where I'm temporarily residing / stuck, you'll get a car width berth when overtaking or they'll slow down, well behind, without any impatience, for ages, until they can overtake with masses of room. You realise how toxic the car driving culture in southern Australia is once you get away from it ... and even more so when you don't have a helmet. Sort of like "you're not wearing a helmet for your own safety, therefore I've got a right to recklessly endanger your life with my tonne(s) of metal".

Even on major roads in Serbia, probably the most reckless drivers we encountered on our cross-continental ride last year, I never encountered that sense of constant fear, let alone active aggression, that is the norm in southern Australia...

*more shudders*

[Comedian]

I got screamed at to "get off the f@#$ road" by a truck driver. I've never had that wearing a helmet.

*brings back shudders*

Here in south-western Ireland, where I'm temporarily residing / stuck, you'll get a car width berth when overtaking or they'll slow down, well behind, without any impatience, for ages, until they can overtake with masses of room. You realise how toxic the car driving culture in southern Australia is once you get away from it ... and even more so when you don't have a helmet. Sort of like "you're not wearing a helmet for your own safety, therefore I've got a right to recklessly endanger your life with my tonne(s) of metal".

Even on major roads in Serbia, probably the most reckless drivers we encountered on our cross-continental ride last year, I never encountered that sense of constant fear, let alone active aggression, that is the norm in southern Australia...

*more shudders*

That whole statement.. *nodds*

[fat and old]

Yep, Tristan the American backpacker hates our MHL's. In a scathing article Tristan, a representative of the tourists we rely so heavily on states

'This is another thing I think is just kind of like an overstep of the government... it's illegal to ride a bike here without wearing a helmet,'

https://www.msn.com/en-au/travel/news/f ... spartanntp

Tristan also hates our "aggressive flies", "harsh sun", paying for petrol at a counter rather than at the pump, not getting free soft drink refills and paying extra for sauce.

I guess that puts the anti-MHL brigade into perspective.

[BobtheBuilder]

Yep, Tristan the American backpacker hates our MHL's. In a scathing article Tristan, a representative of the tourists we rely so heavily on states

'This is another thing I think is just kind of like an overstep of the government... it's illegal to ride a bike here without wearing a helmet,'

https://www.msn.com/en-au/travel/news/f ... spartanntp

Tristan also hates our "aggressive flies", "harsh sun", paying for petrol at a counter rather than at the pump, not getting free soft drink refills and paying extra for sauce.

I guess that puts the anti-MHL brigade into perspective.

More irrelevant ad hominem arguments? Is it because you don't have any substantive ones?