Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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baabaa
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am

Thoglette wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:47 am
baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:11 am
See, now you are just making stuff up.
exactly which stuff?
Sorry, quote and bold did not show so...

Thanks for making the key point: the cycling-as-recreation riders (MTB*, roadies**, BMX, tourers) who were mostly already wearing helmets continued. But those who stopped (almost by definition short trip utility riders), heck, they don't count. They're not committed enough. etc etc etc.

To return to your opening quote, the point is that MHLs effectively curtail the adoption of cycling for ad-hoc short distance transport. That is, getting from A to B. Without activity-specific clothes. Without a shower at the end.

For those who do want to refer to some data nothing shows this more clearly than the fate of MHL bike hire schemes,which specifically target the casual, short distance rider.


Yes, while people who used a helmet pre MHL may have found the transition simple, it is not commitment and just BS to say they now and always will use one when on a bike now in Aust or when OS. Plenty of riders who did not use a helmet in these groups just got on with it and started to use them. Some do so only for comp and some who did not continue, to do so.

The groups you point out is just an attempt to make tribes which really is just daft and very trump like. People come and go and move and then disappear from all these "groups" and other biking methods. ( Worth noting that many of these "committed" or comp type riders as you class them are now riding on what they call gravel type bikes, on gravel type roads just to get away from roads and traffic. Maybe just me but I have seen plenty who then ditch the helmet from the head and strap it to the bike in some way. Once back on the tar and in traffic the lid goes back on)

If you need to see an clear example of these three points you noted working in the opposite, go and spend some time in the ACT. I regret to advise it is in Aust and is largely made up of people from other states, they may stay for a while or then move on. I would say it has a very good mix of all things bikes and what you can do with them and yes the bike hire scheme is still active and works ( well it was at just before stay at home/ lock down rules came into NSW and the ACT ).

And a question for you. Do you really think to keep highlighting riding in Holland vs. Aust is even worth the effort? Ok the population is more or less down a few million on us but they are about 65% the size of Tasmania and really, all other of a similar size and population to them countries struggle to keep up with what they have done bike wise. I say this as being half Dutch and I know they would think this is very, very odd.

Anyway I just noted the ABC www is pointing out new riders are on bikes in quite a big way. Is and was MHL is really stopping these new people starting or was it really the lack of basic infrastructure in combo with the fear of the hostile roads?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun May 17, 2020 10:56 am

Great post baabaa :)
I am a roadie, I struggle with some of the generalised comments saying roadies support MHLs.
Sure we wear helmets as it is mandated we must.
It also makes sense in what is a faster higher risk activity than other forms of riding.
I have some very recent experience confirming it.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Uhf4panJ8xZVvpdy6
It doesn't follow that all roadies support forcing all cyclists to wear a helmet on every type of ride.
It doesn't follow that the bulk of roadies also wore them pre MHL either.
Never heard it mentioned in the countless bunch rides or after ride coffee sessions
It is a nonsensical and unsupported assertion.
Sure most roadies have other interests that are of more importance than campaigning against an unjust law.
It doesn't follow they are advocates however.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun May 17, 2020 11:04 am

baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am


Anyway I just noted the ABC www is pointing out new riders are on bikes in quite a big way. Is and was MHL is really stopping these new people starting or was it really the lack of basic infrastructure in combo with the fear of the hostile roads?

Another good point.
My vocation has given me plenty of experience dealing with the consequences of driver distraction and incompetence.
It is a big fear of mine and one that is also expressed by non-riders who discuss bike riding with me.
Being passed closely and at speed is a valid fear that is not cured by helmet use, the argument that helmet use unjustly provides that impression isn't supported by what can still happen to the human body when hit by a car at speed.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Sun May 17, 2020 12:04 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:59 am
What? Because I wear a helmet and ride a road bike I support the helmet laws? Good grief... :roll:

I might ride a road bike, but the majority of riding done on it is for transport or utilitarian purposes. I’m out there riding every day. In hot temperatures, in the cold, and in the pouring rain.
warthog1 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:56 am
I am a roadie, I struggle with some of the generalised comments saying roadies support MHLs.
Sure we wear helmets as it is mandated we must.
It also makes sense in what is a faster higher risk activity than other forms of riding.
Of course it makes sense for faster riders (or MTBers doing technical trails) to wear a helmet, no one is blaming them for that. Way back when MHL was first introduced I was exactly the same, I always rode fairly fast and I always wore a helmet (pre MHL). Even when I was riding to work I was kind of also doing training. So I had the typical attitude of, "if it's good enough for me then I don't see why everyone can't do it".

That's all DavidS is saying. There is a lot of that type of attitude from "roadies". Of all the "sportive" people I ride with, I'd say that is by far the most common attitude. People usually only see things from there own perspective.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:23 pm

uart wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:04 pm
g-boaf wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:59 am
What? Because I wear a helmet and ride a road bike I support the helmet laws? Good grief... :roll:

I might ride a road bike, but the majority of riding done on it is for transport or utilitarian purposes. I’m out there riding every day. In hot temperatures, in the cold, and in the pouring rain.
warthog1 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:56 am
I am a roadie, I struggle with some of the generalised comments saying roadies support MHLs.
Sure we wear helmets as it is mandated we must.
It also makes sense in what is a faster higher risk activity than other forms of riding.
Of course it makes sense for faster riders (or MTBers doing technical trails) to wear a helmet, no one is blaming them for that. Way back when MHL was first introduced I was exactly the same, I always rode fairly fast and I always wore a helmet (pre MHL). Even when I was riding to work I was kind of also doing training. So I had the typical attitude of, "if it's good enough for me then I don't see why everyone can't do it".



That's all DavidS is saying. There is a lot of that type of attitude from "roadies". Of all the "sportive" people I ride with, I'd say that is by far the most common attitude. People usually only see things from there own perspective.
I don't have or see that attitude amongst the multiple roadies I ride with.
What helmet were you wearing in the 1980s before helmet laws?
I cycle with an olympic medalist who was training and competitive in that era. He asserts differently.
I did not wear one riding my roadie in the 80's, didn't even own one. My recollection is that they were uncommon
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Sun May 17, 2020 1:04 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:23 pm
What helmet were you wearing in the 1980s before helmet laws?
My very first one was an old Bell brand helmet that looked something like this one below. It wasn't a very good helmet by today's standards, but was lighter and had more ventilation than most of the "stackhat" type stuff from that era.
Image

If I recall correctly, around the time of (and just before) the introduction of MHL, the range and performance of helmets (lighter weight and better ventilation) was improving pretty rapidly. The guys I cycled to work with had mostly adopted them prior to MHL, and the guys I raced and trained with all wore helmets.

BTW. At that point our local amateur racing club had already mandated helmets in races (pre MHL), so most guys figured if they were going to have to wear them in races then they may as well wear them in training. (Though admittedly some of the things those guys wore back then would never have met Australian standards LOL).
I cycle with an olympic medalist who was training and competitive in that era. He asserts differently.
I did not wear one riding my roadie in the 80's, didn't even own one. My recollection is that they were uncommon
Ok it might have been a regional thing. My recollection was that they were fairly uncommon until the late 80's, but that the uptake grew fairly rapidly during the last few years of that decade (and I think that there was also quite a bit of advocacy if the final year or two pre-MHL, which probably sped things along).
Last edited by uart on Mon May 18, 2020 2:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Sun May 17, 2020 6:11 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:23 pm
uart wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:04 pm
g-boaf wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:59 am
What? Because I wear a helmet and ride a road bike I support the helmet laws? Good grief... :roll:

I might ride a road bike, but the majority of riding done on it is for transport or utilitarian purposes. I’m out there riding every day. In hot temperatures, in the cold, and in the pouring rain.
warthog1 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:56 am
I am a roadie, I struggle with some of the generalised comments saying roadies support MHLs.
Sure we wear helmets as it is mandated we must.
It also makes sense in what is a faster higher risk activity than other forms of riding.
Of course it makes sense for faster riders (or MTBers doing technical trails) to wear a helmet, no one is blaming them for that. Way back when MHL was first introduced I was exactly the same, I always rode fairly fast and I always wore a helmet (pre MHL). Even when I was riding to work I was kind of also doing training. So I had the typical attitude of, "if it's good enough for me then I don't see why everyone can't do it".



That's all DavidS is saying. There is a lot of that type of attitude from "roadies". Of all the "sportive" people I ride with, I'd say that is by far the most common attitude. People usually only see things from there own perspective.
I don't have or see that attitude amongst the multiple roadies I ride with.
What helmet were you wearing in the 1980s before helmet laws?
I cycle with an olympic medalist who was training and competitive in that era. He asserts differently.
I did not wear one riding my roadie in the 80's, didn't even own one. My recollection is that they were uncommon
Me as well, I don't care what helmet people are wearing or not wearing. I'm more interested that they are not doing stupid things like riding on the wrong side of a blind part of a cycleway with no hands on the bars.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby NASHIE » Sun May 17, 2020 9:57 pm

uart wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:04 pm

Ok it might have been a regional thing. My recollection was that they were very uncommon (even unheard of) pre 1980, but that the uptake grew fairly rapidly during the first few years of that decade (and I think that there was also quite a bit of advocacy if the final year or two pre-MHL, which probably sped things along).
I started road racing with 'hairnet' leather head protection :roll: in 1987 and from memory hard shell helmets become compulsory for racing in 1988 or 89 in WA. Very few riders from 87 to 91 wore helmets out training.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 am

g-boaf wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:59 am
DavidS wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:38 pm
Yeah, but the reality is that cyclist-haters, roadies who wear helmets anyway and doctors who drive to work are the ones who support this silly law.

We all know this.

That photo of the Netherlands just would not happen here because we all see that the proportion of utility cyclists in Australia is so much lower.

DS

What? Because I wear a helmet and ride a road bike I support the helmet laws? Good grief... :roll:

I might ride a road bike, but the majority of riding done on it is for transport or utilitarian purposes. I’m out there riding every day. In hot temperatures, in the cold, and in the pouring rain.

If you want more people riding, you have to ride a lot more yourself and encourage others quietly to do so, helping them along the way. That’s how you get more people to ride. It’s no use pointing fingers at others in forum posts.
Exactly where did I say that all road cyclists who wear helmets support this law?

Nowhere, no wonder this discussion goes around in circles.

I said that the people who support this law are cyclist haters, roadies who wear them anyway and doctors who ride to work. There are others too but they are just identifiable groups.

I ride to work every day too and reluctantly wear a helmet, just not at the moment as I am working from home.

I can understand the cyclist haters and doctors, what I will never understand is cyclists who support this anti-cycling law.

DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Mon May 18, 2020 2:08 am

NASHIE wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:57 pm
uart wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:04 pm

Ok it might have been a regional thing. My recollection was that they were very uncommon (even unheard of) pre 1980, but that the uptake grew fairly rapidly during the first few years of that decade (and I think that there was also quite a bit of advocacy if the final year or two pre-MHL, which probably sped things along).
I started road racing with 'hairnet' leather head protection :roll: in 1987 and from memory hard shell helmets become compulsory for racing in 1988 or 89 in WA. Very few riders from 87 to 91 wore helmets out training.
Sorry Nashie (and others) I had a bit of a "senior moment" there and wrote 1980 where I meant to say 1990 :oops: (that is, just before MHL). I meant to write that the uptake grew rapidly in the few years just before MHL came to be, so around 1990 or a few years beforehand. Previous post now edited.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby g-boaf » Mon May 18, 2020 5:53 am

DavidS wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 am
g-boaf wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:59 am
DavidS wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:38 pm
Yeah, but the reality is that cyclist-haters, roadies who wear helmets anyway and doctors who drive to work are the ones who support this silly law.

We all know this.

That photo of the Netherlands just would not happen here because we all see that the proportion of utility cyclists in Australia is so much lower.

DS

What? Because I wear a helmet and ride a road bike I support the helmet laws? Good grief... :roll:

I might ride a road bike, but the majority of riding done on it is for transport or utilitarian purposes. I’m out there riding every day. In hot temperatures, in the cold, and in the pouring rain.

If you want more people riding, you have to ride a lot more yourself and encourage others quietly to do so, helping them along the way. That’s how you get more people to ride. It’s no use pointing fingers at others in forum posts.
Exactly where did I say that all road cyclists who wear helmets support this law?

Nowhere, no wonder this discussion goes around in circles.

I said that the people who support this law are cyclist haters, roadies who wear them anyway and doctors who ride to work. There are others too but they are just identifiable groups.

I ride to work every day too and reluctantly wear a helmet, just not at the moment as I am working from home.

I can understand the cyclist haters and doctors, what I will never understand is cyclists who support this anti-cycling law.

DS
Read your post, I quoted the entire lot of it. You said it quite clearly and doubled with “we all know this”. You can’t wriggle your way out of that.

The serious issue is the road environment, a cargo or step over bike is no defensive shield against bad drivers. Make the road environment the same as we have it in Rhône-Alps will really get more people riding. You just ride where you want (except motorways) and you are treated with respect by other motorists.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby tubby74 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:39 pm

recommendation from the WA parliamentary inquiry. much the same as a queensland inquiry found, so it will be rejected before the minister responsible even reads it

As a way forward, the Committee has recommended that consideration be given to trialling a
segmented approach to MHL and that the Government also undertake a cost-benefit
analysis of the economic and social cost of imposing bicycle helmets on the
Western Australian community.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Mon May 18, 2020 2:16 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:53 am





Read your post, I quoted the entire lot of it. You said it quite clearly and doubled with “we all know this”. You can’t wriggle your way out of that.

This is true. But I don’t think he’s trying to wriggle out from it, I really believe he doesn’t realise the impact of his chosen words.

Most people who have a strong belief one way or the other tend to gravitate to absolute statements, with no exceptions or grey areas. This causes issues, as you and Warty pointed out.

Just my 2c.

FWIW, I’ve never met another cyclist that supports mhl’s. Never. Met heaps and heaps of parents and partners of cyclists who do though :wink:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Mon May 18, 2020 8:07 pm

baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am
Do you really think to keep highlighting riding in Holland vs. Aust is even worth the effort? Ok the population is more or less down a few million on us but they are about 65% the size of Tasmania and really, all other of a similar size and population to them countries struggle to keep up with what they have done bike wise.
Yes. There is no reason why we can't make cycling a serious method of urban transport in our cities. In the last two decades there has been an immense renaissance in cycling in Australia, especially in inner Melbourne. It's gone from an niche transport mode to one of the most popular. Though it would be nice if didn't have to put up with silly rules.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Mon May 18, 2020 8:46 pm

human909 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:07 pm
Yes. There is no reason why we can't make cycling a serious method of urban transport in our cities. In the last two decades there has been an immense renaissance in cycling in Australia, especially in inner Melbourne. It's gone from an niche transport mode to one of the most popular. Though it would be nice if didn't have to put up with silly rules.
Oh, so you consider people who have the ability to find this internet forum on bicycles do not have the capacity to search the web on something like say... "Bike riding in the Netherlands"?
Does anyone here not know that the Dutch ride bikes? People here are not toddlers.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 18, 2020 10:16 pm

baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am
Sorry, quote and bold did not show so...
again, which stuff is made up?

anyway, we're not getting anywhere so I'm moving on
baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am
The groups you point out is just an attempt to make tribes
No, and I'm going to have to assume (based on the evidence of this statement) that you've not read what I've typed before in this thread so excuse me while I repeat myself....

Again, No. Why? One of the key problems with MHL is it assumes a) all cycling has a similar risk profile and b) cyclists are stupid.

The reality is that the various cycling activities have vastly different risk profiles and, shock, horror, cyclists both recognise this and adjust their PPE accordingly. Even if it's the same person in the same week. There's a lovely paper by a bloke called Zeegers (2015) who explains all this to the academics who can't understand the bloody obvious.

This means that, by and large, MHLs have no effect on those activities where we already were going to wear a helmet. And for those were we weren't going to, we either stop it, or we "scoff the law". There is a middle ground, a grey area, but the principle still applies. (I am in a family with lots of teenagers and those with expensive "hair do"s so I've observed the effect directly)
baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am
Do you really think to keep highlighting riding in Holland vs. Aust is even worth the effort? Ok the population is more or less down a few million on us but they are about 65% the size of Tasmania and really, all other of a similar size and population to them countries struggle to keep up with what they have done bike wise.
Now this is worthwhile.
The Netherlands is absolutely "worth the effort" of talking about. Specifically because of what they have achieved, specifically because they had exactly the same pro-car policies as the rest of the western world in the 70s and specifically because, as you point out, things are different just across the border. Primer here and I highly recommend the book.

And the size/density complaint falls at the first hurdle when one looks at the micro level (e.g. Den Haag vs St Kidla or Chatsworth) rather than the macro.
baabaa wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:23 am
I say this as being half Dutch and I know they would think this is very, very odd.
what, exactly, are you saying?

We had the "Dutch Cycling Embassy" out here a few years back and much of my argument on this topic (and many others) is informed by their views, among others. The other reason to talk about The Netherlands is that it's been studied extensively and the first task for any student of the topic should be to compare and contrast (whereas our pro MHL academics want to talk about Australian exceptionalism to avoid doing just that). One could look at Milan or NYNY or Copenhagen but The Netherlands is the reference.

I think Warthog expressed a concern of being dumped in with the "bad guys" for being "a roadie". The issue here is that our roadie representative bodies either avoid the issue or (hello AGF) actively promote MHLs. Which is a bit of pain as I don't think that reflects the view of the average CA licence holder. But there is definitely a political imperative to not object to MHLs (see BMJ (Goldacre, B; Spiegelhalter, D (2013) DOI: 10.1136/bmj.f3817). It is a shame that our representative bodies don't push for MHLs which match our usage (and needs): for example, MHLs for cyclists with foot retention (or body armour).

Then the Victorian College of Surgeons can have their MHLs and we get it applied to forms of cycling where we'd be using helmets anyway.

(p.s.I wish I had a photo of my old stack-hat clone. )
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Mon May 18, 2020 10:36 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:53 am
DavidS wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 am
g-boaf wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:59 am



What? Because I wear a helmet and ride a road bike I support the helmet laws? Good grief... :roll:

I might ride a road bike, but the majority of riding done on it is for transport or utilitarian purposes. I’m out there riding every day. In hot temperatures, in the cold, and in the pouring rain.

If you want more people riding, you have to ride a lot more yourself and encourage others quietly to do so, helping them along the way. That’s how you get more people to ride. It’s no use pointing fingers at others in forum posts.
Exactly where did I say that all road cyclists who wear helmets support this law?

Nowhere, no wonder this discussion goes around in circles.

I said that the people who support this law are cyclist haters, roadies who wear them anyway and doctors who ride to work. There are others too but they are just identifiable groups.

I ride to work every day too and reluctantly wear a helmet, just not at the moment as I am working from home.

I can understand the cyclist haters and doctors, what I will never understand is cyclists who support this anti-cycling law.

DS
Read your post, I quoted the entire lot of it. You said it quite clearly and doubled with “we all know this”. You can’t wriggle your way out of that.

The serious issue is the road environment, a cargo or step over bike is no defensive shield against bad drivers. Make the road environment the same as we have it in Rhône-Alps will really get more people riding. You just ride where you want (except motorways) and you are treated with respect by other motorists.
Do please point out where I say all roadies support MHLs.

I'm not wriggling out of anything, you seem incapable of reading what I wrote.

DS
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:41 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:16 pm


I think Warthog expressed a concern of being dumped in with the "bad guys" for being "a roadie". The issue here is that our roadie representative bodies either avoid the issue or (hello AGF) actively promote MHLs. Which is a bit of pain as I don't think that reflects the view of the average CA licence holder.
The cycling bodies that represent roadies weren't mentioned at all in the comment I disagreed with. The assertion was that it was the roadies themselves who supported MHLs.
That isn't my experience.

The roadie representative bodies, given they are based around competitive cycling, aren't actually supporting me at all, I cbfed racing anymore.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Tue May 19, 2020 10:15 am

baabaa wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:46 pm
Oh, so you consider people who have the ability to find this internet forum on bicycles do not have the capacity to search the web on something like say... "Bike riding in the Netherlands"?
Does anyone here not know that the Dutch ride bikes? People here are not toddlers.
It really seems like you are trying to miss the point.

The Australia is 'different' argument that you and others used doesn't hold water. Australia has a choice just like the Netherlands has a choice. We are different mostly because we CHOOSE to be so. I say "make a different choice".

(Some inkling of that can already been seen in a few councils in Australia. In a couple of councils there is a continuing trend to build bicycle infrastructure, slower speed limits and giving major cycle routes priority. This is what making a different choice looks like.)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby baabaa » Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am

what, exactly, are you saying?
Hey, I honestly respect your enthusiasm and knowledge on this topic but really, this is nothing new.

Sydney City Council has been visiting Holland alone and as part of delegations since the late 1990s. Who knows the numbers of Australians who have visited as part of study groups? My guess is that the head of the SoC bike branch may/ could have visited more than a dozen time. She is well across all things biking in euro and has given a very high return back to the whole of Aust on the costs of her visits.

Really I am just a bloke with kids who likes bikes and biking and just wants to see reduced speed limits in cities and towns urban. Not sure why but I have been invited to and sat in on endless meetings (where Holland is often raised) with local council bike groups, council staff and reps, Mayors, NSW and Federal local reps, the NSW Premier and PM. All are very aware of what has been done in Holland.

We also had the planets line up with our two local elected reps being the NSW Premier and PM at the same time. Both are bike aware and actually use bikes and could have done a vast amount with this power. Given Manly was such a simple model of what can be done with bike lanes, separated paths and lower speed limits in the CBD. The head of the local Northern Beaches Police region went on record (and was very much the same when face to face) about why MHLs was a very low priority in the area. Trust me, (I consider that) we were very, very close to a jugaad in getting both of these leaders to look at MHL and reduced speeds but that bike vampire Duncan Gay sucked the life out of it.

So my statement is get over Holland it is a known. If you want to learn, look at the biking in cities like Chandigarh, the super bike highways in southern China, the separated bike lanes in Saigon/ HCMC that mix bikes with Honda cubs that are full and yet safe, flow and just work. Chile and Uruguay have very bike infa. Even Bannu in Pakistan has but I have only seen it in the mid 90s and not had a chance to bike it so it may have gone now.
Anyway....Aust could do many things but we just don't, and this is why the Dutch think we are very odd, this is not new stuff, we have all sails up for a long but are all talk and no wind. AND they very much do not understand narrow minded people and sorry to say it but this discussion just highlights that Aust as a nation is still just that.

Sorry but just stop posting here and get writing to your local members, start to do stuff!!!
I like many who are against MHL and have sat in these endless meetings over the years are just bloody tired of the us and thems and the whole lecturing, and worse still the patronising tone that many of the anti MHL people have taken on, yet they do nothing in real life.
Sure if some new facts pops up on or about MHL post them, but facts really matter on the MHL topic and POVs and my thoughts are better than yours posts just blur.

human909
Posts: 9811
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:51 pm

baabaa wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am
what, exactly, are you saying?
BIG LONG POST
None of that clear a thing up and just left me with more questions about your stance and your reasons for posting.

Though I will say one thing...
baabaa wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am
Sydney City Council has been visiting Holland alone and as part of delegations since the late 1990s. Who knows the numbers of Australians who have visited as part of study groups? My guess is that the head of the SoC bike branch may/ could have visited more than a dozen time. She is well across all things biking in euro and has given a very high return back to the whole of Aust on the costs of her visits.
Yep and the participants on such visits either don't get much out of things OR their attempts at change in Australian cities is frustrated at every turn.

I've lost count of the number of useless and dangerous pieces of infrastructure built because the of the attempt at half measures and compromises. Often built with the best of intentions but with a lack of understanding of the real behavior on the roads. State governments ripping up council infrastructure doesn't help either.

Here is a few prominent/recent ones in Melbourne:
-Fitzroy St, St Kilda
-Canning-Pigdon St intersection
-Wellington-Hogkinson St, Clifton Hill (Last month)
-Albert St-Langridge St (Last month)

All of these had failings that were immediately obvious to cyclists but clearly not obvious to those who designed and built these. There is no use going for overseas junkets to Holland if nobody learns anything.

User avatar
Comedian
Posts: 9166
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Tue May 19, 2020 4:38 pm

Summary of a scathing critique of the NSW MHL.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/05/when-ma ... -go-wrong/

fat and old
Posts: 6331
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Tue May 19, 2020 4:48 pm

human909 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:51 pm


-Albert St-Langridge St (Last month)

Langridge St? Maybe Lansdowne? What's wrong with that?

NB Nothing to do with me....Ace Contractors built it.

BobtheBuilder
Posts: 455
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Location: Remote NT

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Tue May 19, 2020 5:42 pm

baabaa wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 am

So my statement is get over Holland it is a known. If you want to learn, look at the biking in cities like Chandigarh, the super bike highways in southern China, the separated bike lanes in Saigon/ HCMC that mix bikes with Honda cubs that are full and yet safe, flow and just work. Chile and Uruguay have very bike infa.
The thing is, the Netherlands is not really a "known". What made it different is organising and resistance, not just polite lobbying and study tours. They are necessary of course, as is getting together good policy and practice that can be advocated for.

But we need to get out on the streets and shake things up, like Critical Mass did in the 1990s, before it got taken over by people more concerned with being friends with the police than being effective. The hard reality is that MHLs and bike policy in general won't change unless there's a bit more oomph put into it, just as the radical Dutch groups did in the 1970s and onwards. Because it's so entrenched now, people think it's part of Dutch "culture", but it isn't, it was created by political action.

And part of that action means having discussions on fora like this and weaning cyclists of the MHL kool-aid, so they a) don't undermine anti-MHL action and b) start to contribute to meaningful pro-bike policies like repealing MHLs.

warthog1
Posts: 15540
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Location: Bendigo

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby warthog1 » Tue May 19, 2020 6:25 pm

Comedian wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:38 pm
Summary of a scathing critique of the NSW MHL.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/05/when-ma ... -go-wrong/
That's good.
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