Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[Peter A]

It is in FACT law, not a cult.

Comply - no fine, disregard - get ticket, pretty simple choice.

Sound like a bunch of recalcitrant 16yr olds at school morning playtime.

[bychosis]

It is in FACT law, not a cult.

Comply - no fine, disregard - get ticket, pretty simple choice.

Sound like a bunch of recalcitrant 16yr olds at school morning playtime.

You keep coming back despite not wanting to say more on the matter.

The discussion here is not about whether it is law or not, but whether it should be law. There are plenty of other examples of laws that people disagree with and continue to be changed as society realises they do not reflect the current situation.

[Peter A]

LOL - some "new" comments deserve a reply.

[bychosis]

LOL - some "new" comments deserve a reply.

Repeating “but it’s the law” doesn’t make much of a reply.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and of course changing the law will not affect your option to continue wearing a helmet and educating others to do the same.

I prefer that adults be given a choice. Personally I choose to wear a helmet for commuting, long road rides and mountain biking for safety. I choose to wear a helmet when riding with the kids along a sharepath or cruising down to the shops to avoid getting a fine. I choose not to wear a helmet to ride 500m to the bus stop to pick up the kids or when testing a bike after maintenance or within a caravan park off to the loo etc.

[DavidS]

It is in FACT law, not a cult.

Comply - no fine, disregard - get ticket, pretty simple choice.

Sound like a bunch of recalcitrant 16yr olds at school morning playtime.

Well actually, there is another choice, and it is a very very popular choice.

Disregard, stop riding a bicycle, and take the car instead.

Why some cyclists support a law which actively discourages cycling is beyond me.

DS

[Thoglette]

Why some cyclists support a law which actively discourages cycling is beyond me.

You're making the same mistake as many pro-helmet law researchers (see Zeegers, T., 2015. Overestimation of the effectiveness of the bicycle helmet by the use of odds ratios. Accident Analysis and Prevention.) in presuming that "cyclists" are a single, homogenous block.

Certain cyclist groups who specialise in high risk cycling as recreation (ironically, either off road or on closed roads) have a track record of being very pro MHL, such as the MTB clubs and the AGF (see the transcripts of the 2015 senate commitee)

Further, these groups (and their membership) have a tendency to see their form of cycling as the ultimate aim of all cycling and, by extension, themselves as the true representatives of All Australian Cyclists (see the hilarious question on membership in CA's recent letter)

So David, imagine (for a moment) that your are incapable of comprehending cycling outside the bubble of organised competition. Forget everything you know about transport and health (again, just for a moment) and restrict your mental image to competition. Where you're likely to drive somewhere to change into your team outfit and then discuss tactics before waiting for your event to start. Post event, you clean up, get changed back into "normal" clothes and load everything back into the car before driving home again.

Now, (just for a little while longer), maintain that degree of mental myopic and let me ask you about MHLs.

See? In that context MHLs make sense just like rules about race numbers on your jersey.

(You can now re-open your eyes and come back to reality)

[bychosis]

Yep. The helmet is great when you ‘have to’ kit up to go for a ride. The helmet adds an element of safety to your ride, just like you might opt for lights or hi-vis. It’s easy when you are preparing for a ride.

What it stops is jumping on a mates bike to duck down and get something for the BBQ when you drove to the BBQ. Or it adds an element of hassle to either lock up or carry your helmet when you drop in to get some milk. It stops ‘plain clothes’ incidental riding because you need to go and find a helmet before you leave.

As I mentioned previously I’ve taken to cruising to pick up the kids from the bus stop sans lid. I also occasionally let my son ride back home sans lid while I walk with the youngest kid. I know it could cost $400, but the risk of being fined is slim in the quiet area we are in and the risk of requiring a helmet for actual safety is virtually nil.

[uart]

Further, these groups (and their membership) have a tendency to see their form of cycling as the ultimate aim of all cycling and, by extension, themselves as the true representatives of All Australian Cyclists (see the hilarious question on membership in CA's recent letter)

Very true Thoglette. That's something I've definitely noticed when talking to various competitive or sportive riders.

I had one guy say (in all seriousness) that he thought it should be illegal for anyone to ride a pushy wearing thongs. Honestly I had no words, I just had to laugh.

BTW. I should point out that at the time of the conversation no one was riding in thongs, so it wasn't just like a backhander or anything at anyone in particular. It was just a general conversation about cycling laws and regulations, and that was seriously his attitude.

[jasonc]

What about the SPD sandal?
https://www.pushys.com.au/shimano-sd500 ... -grey.html

[bychosis]

I had one guy say (in all seriousness) that he thought it should be illegal for anyone to ride a pushy wearing thongs. Honestly I had no words, I just had to laugh.

Probably thinks it’s illegal to drive barefoot or in thongs too

[outnabike]

Folks talk about retro as if it is wonderful. Well I am a living retro and my first bike was from a tip. no tyres and the pedals were just stems. I rode that for two years and bare foot. One day I severely lacerated my toe and the local chemist bandaged it up telling me to go home....
What.... mate?, I was on the way to the only pool in Dandenong on a hot day. Off I went.

[fat and old]

I have to admit to being put off when the "lycra boys" are blamed for all of cycling's ills in this country. A lot. After all, if you don't like them being your advocates simple, support someone else. But the letter Thoglette refers to is a real eye opener....

There is no doubt that cycling is the sleeping giant of Australian sport and recreation. We know around 2.5 million Australians ride a bike every year, yet the combined membership of the 19 separate organisations that administer cycling across the country is just 55,000.
To put that figure in perspective, 11 AFL clubs each have higher membership numbers than cycling and it is less than a third of the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia’s membership base of 180,000. So it is well and truly time to wake the giant and realise our potential, which is what AusCycling is aimed at achieving.
To briefly recap, the headline vision and objectives of AusCycling are to:
– Hand control of cycling back to the clubs, by making them the direct owners of the new organisation.
– Make cycling more accessible and cost effective by introducing one race licence for all disciplines.
– Do away with the shortcomings of having the sport run by 19 organisations, with 19 plans and sets of priorities. This will also enable us to move from 19 small teams of generalists trying to do everything from racing to bike education and policy, to well-resourced specialists, based in existing offices all over the country, both supporting the grass roots and dealing with big strategic issues and programs. It’s about preserving what we’re all doing well today, providing better resources and filling in the white space where we’re not doing what we should be.
– Unify under one banner and grow our membership base to give us a louder voice in lobbying for better outcomes for cyclists, regardless of the type of bike they ride.

So....let's get every cyclist on board to support our clubs. Make cycling more accessible by introducing one race license.



That alone makes me want them to fail. And knowing that the average Cycling Tips reader supports this makes me want it more. Yeah.....I remember the comments on the first story about their first Giro Donna Buang wank fest. How nice it ws to see people who fit into their jerseys, the nice tan lines etc compared to your average fondo ride. What a pack of norbs.

Sometimes the average guy needs to be heard.

[DavidS]

I understand what you are saying Thoglette, but I'm not singling out the different groups of cyclists. I understand a racing cyclist who drives to their race and I understand how a race can feel the need to make helmets mandatory and how the participants expect and support this, it is an organised event and the organisers can make rules for participation.

What I don't get is why they, and some cyclists with very different cycling profiles, feel the need to make the rest of us wear helmets, outside of the context of their event. Why do they want to alter my behaviour when I'm not at their race, I'm not on their road, I'm not commuting to their workplace etc. It is like a religion (another thing I've never understood is why religious people often want those who are not members of their religion to follow the rules of their religion, makes no sense).

Unlike supporters of MHLs those who oppose this law do not want to proscribe others' behaviour, we don't want to ban helmets.

DS

[A_P]

Im a cyclist who would fit into a few different categories.I race (ride to the race if less than 20K).I do group rides and commute as well ( sometimes with helmet, mostly without)
I MTB also.
I can make my own risk assesment on helmet use and expect everyone else to make their own as well.
So dont assume every racing cyclist is a MHL protagonist. Some of us are just "average guys" too.

[Thoglette]

So dont assume every racing cyclist is a MHL protagonist. Some of us are just "average guys" too.

I don't, and I'm painfully aware that whenever I take out the "broad brush" the subtleties and the individuals will get painted over.

A map (or model) provides value, particularly as an abstracted basis for discussion, but one needs to remember that "the map is not the thing mapped".

[bychosis]

What I don't get is why they, and some cyclists with very different cycling profiles, feel the need to make the rest of us wear helmets, outside of the context of their event. Why do they want to alter my behaviour when I'm not at their race, I'm not on their road, I'm not commuting to their workplace etc. It is like a religion (another thing I've never understood is why religious people often want those who are not members of their religion to follow the rules of their religion, makes no sense).

Unlike supporters of MHLs those who oppose this law do not want to proscribe others' behaviour, we don't want to ban helmets.

DS

It’s not all of them, but some people think that if it makes you safer, you should do it. There is also the opinion that if it isn’t hard for them to organise a lid before riding, it shouldn’t be hard for anyone else. They might also consider that everyone should wear hi-vis, or long sleeves for sun protection or a myriad of other different things. They also point to seatbelt laws or hard hats on construction sites etc. we’ve all been brain washed on those points!

As an interesting correlation, you don’t see racing drivers supporting mandatory 5 point harnesses or fire suits in cars becuase they save lives, it seems they recognise that they are too inconvenient and the risks are not great enough to enforce their usage.

[Comedian]

LOL - some "new" comments deserve a reply.

Except they never answer the one about "if you are so worried about head injuries on a bike, why don't you wear a helmet in a car. Quality research suggests you should".

https://www.monash.edu/muarc/archive/ou ... ts/atsb160

You guys never answer that one. Because it would be a pain in the arse to have to wear a helmet in a car for a trip to the shops. And that's why everyone stopped riding for these trips and now drives the car. Everywhere.

I rode 800m to my local bunnings the other day. As per usual the only bike in the entire field of hundreds of cars.. And no.. hardly anyone was walking out with stuff that couldn't be carried on a bike.

[bychosis]

I rode 800m to my local bunnings the other day. As per usual the only bike in the entire field of hundreds of cars.. And no.. hardly anyone was walking out with stuff that couldn't be carried on a bike.

Did you park your bike in the bike rack at the end of the building furthest from the entrance, lock it to the swap and go cage at the entrance or wheel it in with you?

My locals I’ve always locked at the swap and go cage because the bike rack is too far from the entrance.

[Comedian]

I rode 800m to my local bunnings the other day. As per usual the only bike in the entire field of hundreds of cars.. And no.. hardly anyone was walking out with stuff that couldn't be carried on a bike.

Did you park your bike in the bike rack at the end of the building furthest from the entrance, lock it to the swap and go cage at the entrance or wheel it in with you?

My locals I’ve always locked at the swap and go cage because the bike rack is too far from the entrance.

How did you know! The swap and go cage! 20 metres from the door.

I honestly think - well I think people don't know why the one crazy guy rides there. But what they miss is it's quicker and more convenient for me to cycle 800m than it is to drive. I guess.. if all you ever do is drive, and you've got the car sitting there waiting to go then I guess you've forgotten that there is even an alternative.

And who wants to don a helmet for an 800m trip? Not I.

[jasonc]

I rode 800m to my local bunnings the other day. As per usual the only bike in the entire field of hundreds of cars.. And no.. hardly anyone was walking out with stuff that couldn't be carried on a bike.

Did you park your bike in the bike rack at the end of the building furthest from the entrance, lock it to the swap and go cage at the entrance or wheel it in with you?

My locals I’ve always locked at the swap and go cage because the bike rack is too far from the entrance.

How did you know! The swap and go cage! 20 metres from the door.

I honestly think - well I think people don't know why the one crazy guy rides there. But what they miss is it's quicker and more convenient for me to cycle 800m than it is to drive. I guess.. if all you ever do is drive, and you've got the car sitting there waiting to go then I guess you've forgotten that there is even an alternative.

And who wants to don a helmet for an 800m trip? Not I.

Just skip the onion on the sausage and you should be good

[RobertL]

Did you park your bike in the bike rack at the end of the building furthest from the entrance, lock it to the swap and go cage at the entrance or wheel it in with you?

My locals I’ve always locked at the swap and go cage because the bike rack is too far from the entrance.

How did you know! The swap and go cage! 20 metres from the door.

I honestly think - well I think people don't know why the one crazy guy rides there. But what they miss is it's quicker and more convenient for me to cycle 800m than it is to drive. I guess.. if all you ever do is drive, and you've got the car sitting there waiting to go then I guess you've forgotten that there is even an alternative.

And who wants to don a helmet for an 800m trip? Not I.

Just skip the onion on the sausage and you should be good

Maybe Bunnings should introduce a rule that they can only sell sausages to people wearing bike helmets...

<insert pointing to temple, thinking meme>

[human909]

On the positive side the some of the local bunnings DO cater specifically for cyclists.

Right next to the sausages!
https://goo.gl/maps/DvF4B4tHpWRM319J7

Same with Bunnings in Collingwood.
https://goo.gl/maps/JeAvYpaXPFzyV8j47

Inner Melbourne is the outlier. But is shows what can occur with the right circumstances. And once cycling starts happening it quickly snowballs. Go back 20years and the area isn't that much different. But cycling isn't normalised they way it is now.

[Comedian]

On the positive side the some of the local bunnings DO cater specifically for cyclists.

Right next to the sausages!
https://goo.gl/maps/DvF4B4tHpWRM319J7

Same with Bunnings in Collingwood.
https://goo.gl/maps/JeAvYpaXPFzyV8j47

Inner Melbourne is the outlier. But is shows what can occur with the right circumstances. And once cycling starts happening it quickly snowballs. Go back 20years and the area isn't that much different. But cycling isn't normalised they way it is now.

Yes, we've just got to make making good transport choices the easiest choice. My short trip is confounded by a set of traffic lights (which I now bypass). Basically if you aren't in a car - you're going to have to wait for a couple of minutes in the sweltering sun while your automotive lords waft by in their air conditioned carriages. And we wonder why people just take the car.

[queequeg]

The science is clear, Helmets for motorists...

https://medium.com/@colville_andersen/t ... d6c4ae3ed2

[human909]

More rubbish from the usual characters.

https://academic.oup.com/ije/article-pd ... dyz003.pdf

Again, deliberately poor science. The decline of cycling caused by MHL is ignored.