Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[Comedian]

I am sure you would end up with the same result if you were wearing a helmet in a car.
A sumo suit would help as well.
Mandatory sumo suit for bike riders next?

SHHHH.. having to wear a helmet in a car would be a major PITA. Better just to slag off at utility cyclists for being vein because they don't want to wear one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=monash+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

[bychosis]

Oh and whether or not the Canberra "study" is BS here it is for your viewing pleasure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHreVKgOT4

Perhaps ‘study’ wasn’t the right word. Experiment might be a better word.

[opik_bidin]

Sustrans position (UK) :

We believe that it is a personal choice whether to wear a cycle helmet or not, and for parents to make that choice for their children.

https://www.sustrans.org.uk/our-blog/po ... e-helmets/


1. Helmets are designed to reduce impact to the head and can be beneficial if you are involved in a collision. Wearing a helmet whilst cycling is not a legal requirement in the UK.
2. We believe that it is a personal choice whether to wear a cycle helmet or not, and for parents to make that choice for their children.
3. However, it’s important to remember that cycle helmets don’t prevent collisions from happening. Therefore, we strongly support and focus our work on measures that help create and maintain a safe cycling environment to reduce collisions taking place.
---------------------------------------

on hI VIS :

https://www.sustrans.org.uk/our-blog/po ... -clothing/

There is no conclusive evidence to demonstrate that wearing hi-vis clothing contributes to the improved safety of children and adults cycling to and from school but some people like to wear it as it makes them feel safer.

[fat and old]

Now that’s not a bad advocacy group They manage to convey their beliefs or policy whilst engaging the wider public in activities that obviously require helmets and hi-vis. Working with what you’ve got...good job.

[opik_bidin]

The enforcement mainly targets the lower class of society. That is discriminatory as its mainly the poor who will cycle and have little money to pay fines and get their bike back if the bike is taken

and this is an australian research by those in NSW and Queensland

it also points out problems and potential problems of this kind of policing

https://theconversation.com/amp/over-th ... Krni0qhypx

Cycling is often held up as a model of healthy and sustainable urban transport. So why have bike laws become more, not less, draconian? Our ongoing research shows mandatory helmet laws have become a tool of disproportionate penalties and aggressive policing.

Along with an up-surge in enforcement, fines have increased massively. And some police are using bike helmet laws to expand their powers to stop and search riders. The impacts on already disadvantaged groups – particularly young, poor and Aboriginal people – are profound and troubling.

[bychosis]

Agree. I recall an aboriginal social worker discussing how he encourages all young riders to wear a helmet to prevent the fine, nothing more. Fines leads to non payment leads to (skip some steps) prison leads to crime.

[RobertL]

Isn't that the reason why the NT dropped the mandatory helmet law? Because it was overwhelmingly used against aboriginal teenagers?

[bychosis]

Isn't that the reason why the NT dropped the mandatory helmet law? Because it was overwhelmingly used against aboriginal teenagers?

It just shows how Sydney/wealthy centric NSW is. It’s all about the Lycra louts in the inner city clogging up the roads. Fine those scoundrels for everything we can!

It’s not about improving transport options for those who can’t afford a car or don’t just cycle in a bunch on the weekend while talking big business.

[jasonc]

It just shows how Sydney/wealthy centric NSW is. It’s all about the Lycra louts in the inner city clogging up the roads. Fine those scoundrels for everything we can!

Most Lycra louts wear a helmet...

[Comedian]

The enforcement mainly targets the lower class of society. That is discriminatory as its mainly the poor who will cycle and have little money to pay fines and get their bike back if the bike is taken

and this is an australian research by those in NSW and Queensland

it also points out problems and potential problems of this kind of policing

https://theconversation.com/amp/over-th ... Krni0qhypx

Cycling is often held up as a model of healthy and sustainable urban transport. So why have bike laws become more, not less, draconian? Our ongoing research shows mandatory helmet laws have become a tool of disproportionate penalties and aggressive policing.

Along with an up-surge in enforcement, fines have increased massively. And some police are using bike helmet laws to expand their powers to stop and search riders. The impacts on already disadvantaged groups – particularly young, poor and Aboriginal people – are profound and troubling.

Drivers prefer citizens riding bikes wear helmets. It lessens their responsibility and the dreary reality of wearing one just is not their problem.

[Peter A]

Seems simple enough, wear a helmet, avoid fines, what's hard to understand.

People advocating that some groups are less liable to enforcement are advocating racial
segregation.

Why should my/your kids go to school with koorie kids and be treated any differently, shouldn't all
Australians be treated the same ?

If the so called disadvantaged are treated differently then they learn to use that as a
crutch to be lazy, idle, dole bludging etc etc.

Just my opinion

[fat and old]

Isn't that the reason why the NT dropped the mandatory helmet law? Because it was overwhelmingly used against aboriginal teenagers?

The helmet law was used by Indigenous peoples as an example of how the white laws were inappropriate for them and forced a change through the application of pressure bought by their advocates.

Take from that what you will.

[fat and old]

And it’s enlightening how people will complain and advocate against a law they see as regressive and skewed against the “poor and socially disadvantaged” (MHL’s), yet advocate strongly for another that suits their outlook and/or lifestyle in spite of similar results (congestion tax).

[Thoglette]

in spite of similar results (congestion tax).

Agreed, but a progressive congestion taxes in line with Finnish traffic-fines-as-a-percentage-of-income would go someway to adjusting that. (See also day-fine on Wikipedia)

[opik_bidin]

Seems simple enough, wear a helmet, avoid fines, what's hard to understand.

People advocating that some groups are less liable to enforcement are advocating racial
segregation.

Why should my/your kids go to school with koorie kids and be treated any differently, shouldn't all
Australians be treated the same ?

If the so called disadvantaged are treated differently then they learn to use that as a
crutch to be lazy, idle, dole bludging etc etc.

Just my opinion

Helmets must be bought, they have price, and are easy to lose. Plus they come from cultures and laws where cyclists don't need to wear a helmet.

Then there are arguments against MHL here.

Thing is, poor and socially disadvantegeous are more prone to policing, and the policing goes further (strip search, immigration, drugs, etc). And looking at the fine, many of them are bigger than fines for drivers which has heavier consequences.

It's not only aborogins, poor and young people who has a shallow pocket are inversely affected by the fines

we can also debate about social justice about helm wearing, why only cyclists? why not drivers, old people, people going to shower and use stairs, pedestrians, etc.

There are so many advantaged (like those drivers) who become complacent murdering and threatening people, destroying properties, because people just turn a blind eye.

then again, there is power imbalance. this is a reply I got on FB :
----------------
It is easy to pick up the segments of society who are on the receiving end of social and economic injustice. If you were to book coke sniffing lawyers or bankers from eastern suburbs, they will sue the ass out of police.

[fat and old]

in spite of similar results (congestion tax).

Agreed, but a progressive congestion taxes in line with Finnish traffic-fines-as-a-percentage-of-income would go someway to adjusting that. (See also day-fine on Wikipedia)

That’s a good system. I’d go so far as to say it would work for me right across the board.

[fat and old]

Plus they come from cultures and laws where cyclists don't need to wear a helmet.

Please, please explain what part of Indigenous Australian culture you’re referring to? As far as I know the bicycle wasn’t here when Janszoon, the various Chinese traders, Torres or Cook passed by. Not when MacArthur was Governor. It showed up via the White man in the 1800’s. I have no idea when the first Indigenous ride took place, maybe you do? I really want to know how the culture of not needing a helmet was formed seperate to everyone else’s. I especially would like to know about the Indigenous laws that refer to bicycle helmets and the white mans MHL’s.


I was sure you once said you had me on ignore. If you’re going to accuse me of being a liar keep it that way, or at least provide real evidence.

[baabaa]

It's not only aborogins, poor and young people who has a shallow pocket are inversely affected by the fines

How the hell do you know that first peoples do or don't wear bicycle helmets? Worse still you have no idea if they get pulled over by the police and then even get fined and then cant afford to pay? You dont, so stop making stuff up and PO back to your facebook groups with this generalised racist sort of crap.

[opik_bidin]

Plus they come from cultures and laws where cyclists don't need to wear a helmet.

Please, please explain what part of Indigenous Australian culture you’re referring to? As far as I know the bicycle wasn’t here when Janszoon, the various Chinese traders, Torres or Cook passed by. Not when MacArthur was Governor. It showed up via the White man in the 1800’s. I have no idea when the first Indigenous ride took place, maybe you do? I really want to know how the culture of not needing a helmet was formed seperate to everyone else’s. I especially would like to know about the Indigenous laws that refer to bicycle helmets and the white mans MHL’s.


I was sure you once said you had me on ignore. If you’re going to accuse me of being a liar keep it that way, or at least provide real evidence.

I meant people like me from Indonesia and others coming from China and India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, who I say here in Lakemba and Bankstown rarely wearing their helmet for short trips to the shop, train station and mosque

[opik_bidin]

It's not only aborogins, poor and young people who has a shallow pocket are inversely affected by the fines

How the hell do you know that first peoples do or don't wear bicycle helmets? Worse still you have no idea if they get pulled over by the police and then even get fined and then cant afford to pay? You dont, so stop making stuff up and PO back to your facebook groups with this generalised racist sort of crap.

It'a in the link. If you cannot read and open the link you can just pm me and i will teach you step by step how to do it

[fat and old]

Plus they come from cultures and laws where cyclists don't need to wear a helmet.

Please, please explain what part of Indigenous Australian culture you’re referring to? As far as I know the bicycle wasn’t here when Janszoon, the various Chinese traders, Torres or Cook passed by. Not when MacArthur was Governor. It showed up via the White man in the 1800’s. I have no idea when the first Indigenous ride took place, maybe you do? I really want to know how the culture of not needing a helmet was formed seperate to everyone else’s. I especially would like to know about the Indigenous laws that refer to bicycle helmets and the white mans MHL’s.


I was sure you once said you had me on ignore. If you’re going to accuse me of being a liar keep it that way, or at least provide real evidence.

I meant people like me from Indonesia and others coming from China and India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, who I say here in Lakemba and Bankstown rarely wearing their helmet for short trips to the shop, train station and mosque

Ahhhh....the gravity game. I see.

I’m out.

[opik_bidin]

Interesting statistic

irstly, the #1 offence that NSW police book Cyclists for is, surprise surprise, No Helmet. In 2018/2019 financial Year, it represented 61.3% of all fines issued, but because of the high fine it represented 76.5% of the total revenue raised!

[fat and old]

So each fine was $337.00

Given that you can buy a helmet for 50 bucks $2,056,374.00 would buy what....6 helmets per fine? 30,000 helmets?

I'd like to see a system similar to not having your license with you. Present to the local law enforcement within 7 days.

No helmet? Present to local police within 7 days with a helmet and receipt for such helmet or cop the fine. That's fair.

[tpcycle]

When MHLs were first introduced in NSW there was a grace period where you could present to the police station with a receipt and helmet within a set period and the fine would be withdrawn. There were also various pronouncements about the fine never going to be more than the cost of a helmet. Sort of like the BS about the toll on the Sydney Harbor Bridge being abolished once the loan was paid off. Like any self serving announcement it's obviously not a "core promise".

In regards to the less well off being targets of police enforcement - I think you'd have to be living in a bubble not to have seen the evidence to support this. Look for studies out of the USA. And no I'm not going to google it for you.

Yeah, yeah, I know just wear a helmet it's not hard. How about just forget about the bike and drive a car, that'd be even easier.

[Peter A]

Isn't a mountain being made out of a molehill here, 7.5Million+ in NSW and 6K+ MHL Pen Notices issued per annum.

About one person in 1,230 is booked for MHL.

In a large provincial town of about 50,000 people the number of tickets issued would be about 40.

Less than one ticket / week for the entire cop shop of probably 40++ personnel.

So the average cop might issue one MHL ticket per year, lazy so.n.so's.....LOL

(My maths, YMMV.)